Draft: First Across the Walls...

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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Ereth Redwain on Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:43 pm

Now we just need the dragon to break the castle gate so we can all go in lol
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Baelon Drakeson on Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:46 pm

It could be good factor bulk or more generally movement speed in - the faster you can move, the faster you can climb. Thematically that would mean less time for archers to shoot at you, so maybe as a bonus on the warfare test, though that is not the most obvious place for it otherwise.

Way back in the beginning (when most of us had different usernames lol) there was a discussion about shield mechanics that included a discussion about tower shields, and their prevalence in Westeros. It's an interesting read - the consensus, it seems to me, was that tower shields were an aberration introduced by Green Ronin. That's the biggest reason I didn't start with one to begin with. The shield mechanics discussion starts toward the bottom of page 1, but the historic/GoT specific descussion begins with Gwyn's comment almost all the way down page of this thread
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Theomore Tullison on Wed Dec 07, 2016 8:54 pm

Nah, would be rather problematic with having to try and get a ram to survive their scorpions and catapults.

Also, they cost land, not wealth.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Septon Arlyn on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:01 pm

Loreia wrote:If the enemy is allowed to Coordinate, then we should be too.

I like what she said in the other posts. Here is how I imagine it going down thematically

Commander, (only one, status (rep) to command) the leader of the forces has one chance to order and coordinate the first charge. test warfare (strategy) vs TN (castle) on success, give each PC who attempts the charge gets + 1 per DOS to warfare roll. failure - 1 to warfare check of PCs attempting the charge. Critical failure leads to above, as well as the drawback ignoble as the word of your failure spreads.

4 DOS = +1 glory and a VP towards a leadership quality as word of your brilliance in command spread.

Cover fire (marksmanship TN (castle)) provide a -1 penalty per DOS to archer volleys and death from above to one PC. Any number can take part, but forfeit the chance for glory

What do people about these modifiers to involve more people / give people different things to do while the main battle is going on
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Septon Arlyn on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:03 pm

I feel like having tower shields in personal combat might be sketch... but putting a large mass of wood in front you and the death wish of attacking a castle? I think that is a reasonable place for tower shields, even if it does not go by the same name
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Ser Walton Dulver on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:04 pm

Septon Arlyn wrote:
Loreia wrote:If the enemy is allowed to Coordinate, then we should be too.

I like what she said in the other posts. Here is how I imagine it going down thematically

Commander, (only one, status (rep) to command) the leader of the forces has one chance to order and coordinate the first charge. test warfare (strategy) vs TN (castle) on success, give each PC who attempts the charge gets + 1 per DOS to warfare roll. failure - 1 to warfare check of PCs attempting the charge. Critical failure leads to above, as well as the drawback ignoble as the word of your failure spreads.

4 DOS = +1 glory and a VP towards a leadership quality as word of your brilliance in command spread.

Cover fire (marksmanship TN (castle)) provide a -1 penalty per DOS to archer volleys and death from above to one PC. Any number can take part, but forfeit the chance for glory

What do people about these modifiers to involve more people / give people different things to do while the main battle is going on

Wise words. You should be maester, not septon.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Theomore Tullison on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:16 pm

I don't think the commander should be getting any rewards other than "help win the battle". I also find it a bit of a stretch to imagine him being able to help direct a single character scale the walls.

However, it would be cool if commanders could direct units to grant cover fire and stuff to give those attempting to get across the walls bonuses, and this event taking place over player action phase. I'd say this event setup only makes sense if the gate is down or there's a wall breach. Else there must be a unit that manages to scale the wall (or at least gets ladders and such up for using), and even then there should probably be a climb test involved. Probably with success on the event have impact on the battle scale in some manner.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Septon Arlyn on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:20 pm

I only included the rewards for 4 DOS as it is highly unlikely that anyone without at least a 5 in warfare would be able to get the #'s needed, and to balance out the risk of a critical failure drawback
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Septon Arlyn on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:31 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:I don't think the commander should be getting any rewards other than "help win the battle". I also find it a bit of a stretch to imagine him being able to help direct a single character scale the walls.


It is not that he is helping a single character over the walls, he is helping *all* PCs (and NCs but who cares about those) with his strategy. that could include things like cover fire, or using rain / dust / attacking at dawn from the east to blind the archers / whatever to obscure the attack, and ect.

The Marksmanship is the only that only affects one character, representing one character looking out for another.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:47 pm

Thanks to everyone for their playtest rolls.

I appreciate this event is difficult but it is supposed to be, and the playtest results seem to bear that out. Thanks Darron and Walton.

It looks like people will need good luck to get through this, which is as intended. Spending destiny in the right places on this could make a big difference too, which people haven't allowed for. It's supposed to be sufficiently difficult that only one or two PCs attempt it per battle, or even none.

Will tweak the event to adjust for Bulk and a few other issues that people have helpfully flagged. I share the broader distaste for knights with tower shields, but we can kick this around (mantlets if the besieging forces has brought them might help).

Nathaniel - death from above is Marksmanship 3D as I'm assuming normal warriors are chucking stones with +1D from gravity/circumstance bonus from the target being on a ladder.

Loreia - you lot aren't allowed to coordinate I'm afraid, makes things too easy and hard to justify for the besiegers.

There will be different difficulties as each castle is a different size, but I only anticipate a few attempts at this per story by brave PCs well stocked with destiny.

Warfare & Will success - cumulative.

Baelon:

2) Recreating Jorah's "inspiration" in the Lannisport tourney and the fame he gained against the Greyjoys was in my mind when putting this event together. Thinking a pool of DP, with 1DP for a anything up to a castle, 2DP for castle, 3DP for a superior castle. These DP can only be spent, not burned.
3) Agree on other people not helping with Warfare roll given the chaos of battle.
4) 1B on Will is a pool to use on subsequent rolls.
5) As you point out people can take fatigue. Or try to risk avoid spending it and tank the damage instead, spend DP. This is supposed to be dangerous.
I'm using the narrator chapter boiling oil/water/wildfire damage, not the warfare scale stuff.
Rocks = flat 7 Damage per DoS, armour applies. Feels reasonable to me, interested in thoughts.
6) Max 2-3 per siege? Need to decide on how precedence works. Too personal a scale to drive the broader battle (I'd tweak this in a tabletop/chat game, but don't want a warfare scale battle waiting for this to resolve).
7) Too easy to let people thin out the defenders. If they're all dead, arrows and oil exhausted, it's no longer challenging enough to provide glory and VP. Evil or Very Mad
8') Might drop the element adjusting the TN up to make things a little easier, agree the TNs are a bit tough. If people want more DoS they can buy higher Warfare/Will, use destiny to keep an extra dice, use Blood of the Andals/Pious.
9) Keen to keep this separate from big picture Warfare, more about gaining a foothold at a personal level. As much for meta reasons (so warfare and personal combat don't hold each other up).
10) Agreed, thanks to you and everyone else for playtesting.


Last edited by Reader on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:51 pm

Adding to the above - I like some of the abstract elements people have suggested, but particularly with combat things I want to keep the mechanics as close to the core rules as possible, which this does, rather than having abstract rolls against particular TNs. People built PCs with the core combat rules in mind, and this uses those rules. Setting fighting TNs, but then trying to adjust for different damage stats etc makes for a difficult abstraction and having to make various balancing adjustments so things are fair between the Fighting 4, 7 damage per DoS PC and the Fighting 5, 5 damage per DoS PC. We can use stats to abstract this away, but why do that, when we can have the satisfaction of gritty hand to hand fighting?
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:54 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:I don't think the commander should be getting any rewards other than "help win the battle". I also find it a bit of a stretch to imagine him being able to help direct a single character scale the walls.

However, it would be cool if commanders could direct units to grant cover fire and stuff to give those attempting to get across the walls bonuses, and this event taking place over player action phase. I'd say this event setup only makes sense if the gate is down or there's a wall breach. Else there must be a unit that manages to scale the wall (or at least gets ladders and such up for using), and even then there should probably be a climb test involved. Probably with success on the event have impact on the battle scale in some manner.

As the battle is an abstraction the commander's warfare test is "knowing" where to put ladders/ropes, natural defilades to use on approach, cover fire, etc. That knowledge translates to assisting PCs. Any rewards should be RP in nature. E.g. Maybe Theomore's disposition rises with some Lord's due to skill and little loss of life. Or it lowers as he throws men into the meat grinder.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:55 pm

Jon Templeton wrote:
Theomore Tullison wrote:I don't think the commander should be getting any rewards other than "help win the battle". I also find it a bit of a stretch to imagine him being able to help direct a single character scale the walls.

However, it would be cool if commanders could direct units to grant cover fire and stuff to give those attempting to get across the walls bonuses, and this event taking place over player action phase. I'd say this event setup only makes sense if the gate is down or there's a wall breach. Else there must be a unit that manages to scale the wall (or at least gets ladders and such up for using), and even then there should probably be a climb test involved. Probably with success on the event have impact on the battle scale in some manner.

As the battle is an abstraction the commander's warfare test is "knowing" where to put ladders/ropes, natural defilades to use on approach, cover fire, etc. That knowledge translates to assisting PCs. Any rewards should be RP in nature. E.g. Maybe Theomore's disposition rises with some Lord's due to skill and little loss of life. Or it lowers as he throws men into the meat grinder.

Thanks Jon. I agree that narrative is a good way to handle this.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Darron Greyjoy on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:07 pm

Yea after rereading the coordination part I realised I fucked up and doesn't add +B dice based on DoS, don't know where I got that from might have been a house rule from a home game. Also could the coordination house rule be added to the house rule page please. Might have another go at the rolls seeing as I messed up and with the changes to the boiling water etc.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:10 pm

Just spit balling here but you could always spend a DP and use a fatigue to gain 4 Lesser Actions?

A person could use 2 "Sprints" to get up the ladders blazing fast avoiding death from above and concentrated archer fire. Nothing motivates quite like a healthy fear of death.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:13 pm

Darron Greyjoy wrote:Yea after rereading the coordination part I realised I fucked up and doesn't add +B dice based on DoS, don't know where I got that from might have been a house rule from a home game. Also could the coordination house rule be added to the house rule page please. Might have another go at the rolls seeing as I messed up and with the changes to the boiling water etc.

Hope this link works - coordinate house-rule should be here: http://dragonsdance.forumotion.co.uk/t23-house-rules#45457

Another go at the siege is welcome if you have the energy, really appreciate your help. Smile

You (and others!) could even try spending some DP on it to make it more realistic? Perhaps leaving one in case you needed to save yourself in the final combat element?

I quite like Jon's ideas on creative ways to reduce the threats by using DP and fatigue, I'll try to work this in too. Don't want everything eliminated and unsure about people sprinting up ladders, but a little bit of creativity is fun!
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Loreia on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:18 pm

The Fast Benefit...hmm. Sorry, unless there's an Athletics test, I don't see it affecting anything. Warfare is a mental discipline. Running faster doesn't make you harder to hit, it just makes you a moving target, which I think is just flavor for difficulty.

Consider that if you're grabbing shields heavier than the standard, you're adding bulk onto your movement. So if we were to account for the bonus to movement that Fast grants, we'd have to be fair and factor in Bulk across shields and armor. Which is a thing we could do...I dunno, just feels like the smallest variable could have big changes. Thankfully, not up to me!
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Aerion Storm on Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:41 pm

Playtest:

Warfare, diff 9: 3d6 14

2 DoS = Archery gauntlet does not receive coordinate test benefits, as you strike at a weak point on the walls or coordinate a diversionary assault elsewhere.

Will, diff 9: 3d6 12
- Success = Avoid fatigue

Archery Gauntlet: 2#5d6k4+4 25 18
- Default is two volleys of 5d6k4+4 as the archers assist one another.
- Base Damage of 4 (piercing 1) or 5 (piercing 2)

[Using his regular shield and full plate, CD 8, that would be 12 points of damage, then 7 damage. With a tower shield for CD 12 instead, that would be lower, but still likely to need some damage mitigation.]

Death from above
Opposed agility (dodge) test against Marksmanship 3 with +2 assist bonuses and attack by boiling oil, boiling water, rocks or even wildfire.
Dodge vs. Marksmanship: 3d6-4 11 3d6+2 9
[Hot dice bucked the odds there!]
So that's still a fight atop the wall -- either with his regular shield (but far more damage from arrows, or having brought a tower shield to help with arrows, then discarded it -- with at least some damage mitigation from the archery round. And that took some pretty hot dice along the way.

With only 9 health/3 End to use for damage mitigation, he's gonna have some major penalties in the ensuing fight (and should've had some penalty against the DFA, now that I think about it, which likely would've made that a hit, too).

So yeah. It's tough, but I guess it's meant to be.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:59 am

Loreia wrote:The Fast Benefit...hmm. Sorry, unless there's an Athletics test, I don't see it affecting anything. Warfare is a mental discipline. Running faster doesn't make you harder to hit, it just makes you a moving target, which I think is just flavor for difficulty.

Mechanically it does; Whenever you attack a target that sprinted on its last turn, you take –1D on your Fighting or Marksmanship test.

RL it does too. But that is an OOC topic.

Of course my suggestion of 2 "sprints" up a ladder is a different ball game all together.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Lady Corrine Marsten on Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:04 am

Baelon Drakeson wrote:
Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:So, if it's basically a suicide mission... why do?
I wouldn't, of course.

Then why Ben do? Waiii?

Also, does that mean you're staying in KL? Daddy will be disappointed.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Loreia on Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:06 am

Oh, right. Can't really sprint up a ladder or over a wall though, I wouldn't think so at least. In theory, everyone's going to be rushing up the wall. Perhaps Athletics vs a TN12 to get that penalty to the archers in the gauntlet.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Thu Dec 08, 2016 2:58 am

Loreia wrote:Oh, right. Can't really sprint up a ladder or over a wall though, I wouldn't think so at least. In theory, everyone's going to be rushing up the wall. Perhaps Athletics vs a TN12 to get that penalty to the archers in the gauntlet.

As someone who wore an IBA system while in the military (modern equivalent of full plate) I could "sprint" up ladders/walls if properly motivated. I'd mechanically call that DP use and fatigue. But like you said those decisions get to be made by Reader. Smile

As for the Wyl defenders prioritizing their arsenal you could say we do tests to mitigate and/or negate.

Step 1: Warfare test to know where to climb. This adds/subtracts to rolls against falling rocks.
Step 2: Archers. While scaling the ladders you can use fatigue to get up faster. You have to go 15 yards and using fatigue allows extra moves but puts you at a disadvantage when you get up top.
Step 3: Boiling Oil. Spend a DP or take your chances with roll.

I'm just rambling at this point.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Baelon Drakeson on Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:47 am

Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:
Baelon Drakeson wrote:
Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:So, if it's basically a suicide mission... why do?
I wouldn't, of course.

Then why Ben do? Waiii?

Also, does that mean you're staying in KL? Daddy will be disappointed.

Oh, I didn't meant going to war was a suicide mission - just climbing the walls like that. I'll be going to war, just meant I'd probably let others get killed climbing walls - though depending on how the final mechanics shake out, I might give it a shot. I mean, Dragons are bold creatures, as a certain Prince once told Baelon. That and thinking about it more, I could have handled it better - dailies and such would have made a big difference.

Also, I have a whole bunch of character ideas ready to pitch to Reader should the worst occur... pale
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:23 am

Things didn't go as smoothly as some others did. lol
Of course for the last roll I'd be using fatigue and possibly a DP spent.
So once I hit the top I'd be at
3/12 HP
1 Fatigue and 1 DP spent

Test:

Test Castle, Warfare TN 9: 3d6k3 10
Success = default rounds of archery gauntlet

Test Castle, Will TN 9: 3d6k3 12
Success = Avoid fatigue

Test, SGT Coordinate TN 12: 4d6k3 14
Archer Volley becomes 5d6k4+5

Test, Archers with +1 Sgt. Coordinate: 2#5d6k4+5 20 23 vs CD 11
Going with 5 (piercing 2) for Damage.
Archer 1: 2 DoS = 10 - 8 = 10/12 HP
Archer 2: 3 DoS = 15 - 8 = 3/12 HP

Test, AGI/Dodge: 3d6k3-4 6 vs. Test MM 3 w/ +2: 3d6k3+2 12

Getting hit by something.




Last edited by Jon Templeton on Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Aerion Storm on Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:36 am

Baelon Drakeson wrote:Also, I have a whole bunch of character ideas ready to pitch to Reader should the worst occur... pale
As much as I like Aerion, I've totally spent the last few weeks just overflowing with character concepts. "Oh, damn, I should've made ____________, or I coulda gone with ___________, or, ooh, ____________ could have been neat!" It's an addictive setting that just makes me wanna play more stuff! Smile
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