Draft: First Across the Walls...

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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Kevan Lyras on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:08 am

Jon, I think your test run should include dailies as most fighters have at least one between BotA, Lucky, Winning First etc.
E.g. the +2 from BotA would push the will test to 2DoS...

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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Aerion Storm on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:13 am

Sorry if it's a little off-topic, but what's Winning First? Is it from a supplement I haven't got yet?
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:16 am

Kevan Lyras wrote:Jon, I think your test run should include dailies as most fighters have at least one between BotA, Lucky, Winning First etc.
E.g. the +2 from BotA would push the will test to 2DoS...

There in lies the question. Do people blow their once a day load getting up to the top or save something for the fight once they get there.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Kevan Lyras on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:18 am

Aerion: It is the Pious quality. Theo's version is just renamed because his strength is not coming from his confidence in the Seven but his own abilities. (Pls correct me if I am wring Theo)

Jon: Hm true, I'd it depends on the situation but the +2 seems more useful here than in the fight itself

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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Loreia on Thu Dec 08, 2016 6:49 am

I don't know why you're giving yourself a -4. It doesn't look like you took any injuries. But if you're applying Fatigue to the archery attacks, wouldn't you take 2 Fatigue to ignore AP for both attacks?
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Ser Walton Dulver on Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:22 am

Hm, maybe bulk of 3 or 4 could be no penalties/bonuses one. And with every extra point You get penalty point. With every point less You get bonus point. Bulk 4 seems like average guy climbing the walls. But if we are talking about penalties from load we drag with us on the walls, why not let us remove part of bulk penalties by rolling Climb or Strength? Roll not to see did we climb the ladder, but how well it went.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Darron Greyjoy on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:14 pm

Second try:

Warfare (strategy/tactics) TN 9: 3d6 12

Will (Courage) TN 9: 3d6 11

Will (Coordinate) TN 12 *2: 2#4d6k3 10 13
Second archer gets +2 (House rule half will im just rounding it up.)

Archer 1: 5d6k4+4 24
3 DoS 15 - 9 6/12 Health

Archers 2: 5d6k4+6 18
2 Dos 10 - 9 5/12 Health

Boiling water: 3d6+2 7

agility (dodge): 3d6-1 10
Fatigue to remove AP.

Two enemies at the end with 5 Health, 1 fatigue.


Going to do another run when I get the chance but this one went way better. After rereading Coordination I realised it doesn't give a +B but just adds to their roll so yea messed that up must have been a house rule from a home game or something. Not a big fan of bulk negatively effecting dice pools that's what AP is for.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Baelon Drakeson on Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:24 pm

Aerion Storm wrote:As much as I like Aerion, I've totally spent the last few weeks just overflowing with character concepts.  "Oh, damn, I should've made ____________, or I coulda gone with ___________, or, ooh, ____________ could have been neat!"  It's an addictive setting that just makes me wanna play more stuff!  Smile
Exactly! It's not that I want to stop playing Baelon, it's just that the hardest part of making a character for me is not making all the others!
As the game has gone on, new ideas spring up, too. A current sampling, off the top of my head:
*Gwyn's heretofore unknown half-brother by her long-missing father (or is he just lying to get his fingers in the Drakeson coffers?)
*A hidden heir of House Towers returning from exile eager to reclaim Harrenhall, but unlike Daenarys has no money, no army, and of course no dragons.
*A Reed come down from Greywater Watch to meet the new neighbors.
*An Essosi pit fighter, retired from fighting but looking to set one up - albeit without slave fighters - in a new market, and then becomes enamored of Gwyn and signs on with House Drakeson.

Plus all sorts of mechanical ideas I'd like to try out. So many characters, so little time, yeh?

Jon Templeton wrote:There in lies the question. Do people blow their once a day load getting up to the top or save something for the fight once they get there.
Also the timing! These are sequential rolls, so you should be making such decisions before you make the next roll - so do you use the BoA+2/Lucky/Pious/etc. on Will or Tactics to get an extra DoS and goodies, or do you save them in case you need them to avoid disaster on the Death from Above step?

Kevan Lyras wrote:Aerion: It is the Pious quality. Theo's version is just renamed because his strength is not coming from his confidence in the Seven but his own abilities. (Pls correct me if I am wring Theo)
Baelon has a similar not-Pious named "No Rival" that expresses similar ideas. Mechanically it is identical, down to the 1B in Dedication prerequisite. Pious is all wrong in flavor, but as a representation of pushing through something by force of will alone, it is quite appropriate to the character.

Kevan Lyras wrote:Jon: Hm true, I'd it depends on the situation but the +2 seems more useful here than in the fight itself
I would agree with this, mostly because the +2 is only useful when it can push you up to another DoS, which may not come up in the fight. Now, it could turn out that the +2 could turn a lucky 3 DoS hit into a winning 4 DoS hit, and thus prevent a final attack from defeating you... but that is not likely to be the case.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Lady Corrine Marsten on Thu Dec 08, 2016 4:15 pm

I have a backup as well, Baelon. I do often think on the notorious tearaway not played. Laughing
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Gwyneth Drakeson on Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:20 pm

I admit to thinking about my little witch from Southron Ambitions and wanting to try something like that again.

Though it'd be a hard fit in this game, I think.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:00 pm

Gwyneth Drakeson wrote:I admit to thinking about my little witch from Southron Ambitions and wanting to try something like that again.

Though it'd be a hard fit in this game, I think.

At the risk of derailing my own thread, I have fond memories of Southron Ambitions and the other PCs (for those unfamiliar with it, Southron Ambitions was a precursor play by post game set at the Great Tourney at Harrenhall, with excellent narrators and high production values - fortnightly fiction, several narrators to help run NPCs etc, similar events and format used for days etc). As bonkers as this game is, it is actually the stripped down, bare bones equivalent of Southron Ambitions & Blood in the Water. Dragon's Dance isn't about high production values, more staying power and a strong cast of active players.

Aiming to review Wall storming format and post finalised version at the weekend.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Gwyneth Drakeson on Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:11 am

Production values? Hooey kaflooey!

Don't get me wrong, Southron Ambitions was awesome, but the production values aren't what I remember about it. What I remember is the great character work and the exemplary storytelling by all involved.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Septon Arlyn on Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:15 am

Gwyneth Drakeson wrote:Production values? Hooey kaflooey!

Don't get me wrong, Southron Ambitions was awesome, but the production values aren't what I remember about it. What I remember is the great character work and the exemplary storytelling by all involved.

yeah! what she said! *shakes fist*

but seriously you do a great job reader, don't sell yourself short Smile
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Gwyneth Drakeson on Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:18 am

Oh gode, you changed your avatar.

You are no longer a Septon of the Seven. Now there is only the Stranger...because it don't get any stranger than that. Very Happy
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Septon Arlyn on Fri Dec 09, 2016 12:21 am

Gwyneth Drakeson wrote:Oh gode, you changed your avatar.

You are no longer a Septon of the Seven. Now there is only the Stranger...because it don't get any stranger than that. Very Happy

lol yep Smile good times had by all Shocked
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Theomore Tullison on Fri Dec 09, 2016 8:57 am

Honestly, those narrators (just two) weren't all that good, great storytellers but they bit off more than they could chew and the project was too ambitious considering their grasp of setting and system (and how time intensive it became).

To do what they wanted to do requires a time allotment bordering on obsession, a grasp of the ruleset that I have yet to see in anyone* half as good at storytelling that they were and knowing the books, the wiki, the concordance and so spake martin like the back of your hand.

*I think I can name one exception, but he would never devote such an amount of time as required to run something like this.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Gwyneth Drakeson on Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:12 pm

That's the challenge of a game like this one...it's definitely a multidimensional task, requiring a 'perfect storm' of colliding positive influences. I'm glad we've been able to keep it up. Smile
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:04 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:Honestly, those narrators (just two) weren't all that good, great storytellers but they bit off more than they could chew and the project was too ambitious considering their grasp of setting and system (and how time intensive it became).

To do what they wanted to do requires a time allotment bordering on obsession, a grasp of the ruleset that I have yet to see in anyone* half as good at storytelling that they were and knowing the books, the wiki, the concordance and so spake martin like the back of your hand.

*I think I can name one exception, but he would never devote such an amount of time as required to run something like this.

I think you should speak more kindly of people who did a good job. Southron Ambitions was excellent while it lasted and their game inspired other fun PbP games.

They certainly had the mechanical competence to run that kind of game (this system isn't that complicated and they knew it well) and they did a fine job with the source material.

We can't know what personal circumstances led to them having to abandon the game.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Ser Walton Dulver on Sun Dec 11, 2016 10:50 pm

I made some bigger testing of it today and here are my thoughts. I ran whole scene from beginning to end in different variants and:
- 2 guardsmen equipped in halbers may be pretty tough for many guys. Without Fighting 5 and high CD Guardsmen can destroy character. Maybe they could be little mixed with knights or someone else? Walton walks through event without bigger problems, but with little better rolls of his opponents he can also get injury or two. Guys with less dices may have bigger problems if they can't kill one guy every round. Characters with Fighting 4 will very likely have major problems.

- character without heavy armor AND shield will have big problems. Tower shield is HUGE difference here. I would recommend leaving it without penalty, to let more people enjoy sieges- it already needs 2B in Shields to don't get Fighting penalty

- Agility 3 may be too low for current set up, when character is outnumbered by Guards with Athletics 4 and halberds.

- KoQ may be tough guy to beat after character gets few hits. But that's good, it starts to be interesting here. Make him Secondary character?

- character needs high CD (I have feeling that around 13 seems reasonable). If not, already archer gauntlet will make strainer from his ass.

- fighting animal like Walton would be very useful to pull it- win his combat and aid others, but weakest guys will have to stay alive for like 3-4 rounds or more. CD again...

- if lowering difficulty of overall scene, adding penalties for using heavier armors may not be bad.

If I would have to say it short, I would suggest to mix opponents awaiting us on walls. Or make additional opponents to be Knights instead of Guards. 2 halberds falling on guy is acceptable, but third one may hurt. That means injuries and wounds. If there is one more combat planned after walls, not all characters may be able to continue fight in it, but if it's tough, we get satisfaction out of it, right?
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Ser Alfred Haigh on Sat Dec 31, 2016 6:25 pm

Question is how friendly the task is towards people with heavy armour. I mean, hogging a siege ladder in, say, half-plate is one thing, full plate would in my mind already pushing it (har har). A tower shield is a pretty big lump of weight that's way too losely attached for comfort for me. If that thing slides awkwardly,the ladder could capsize (not sure thats the proper english for it, but it conveys the picture). Point is, ICly, I'd ditch the Tower Shield wiothout a second thought thank you very much, but then thats me (and Tower Shields are for crossbowmen and the like, but thats an OOC personal PoV that doesn't have to be shared). Altogether, I think its a bunch of bulk that any ambitious wall-climber could better invest elsewhere. Or just try to avoid by finding a spot thats not as open to the arrows as others.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Loreia on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:34 am

If possible, adjusting the challenge to allow people to try being first through the gate instead would allow me to bring my animal cohort into the personal combat. I don't think it would change the challenges themselves. Or maybe climbing the wall was made to be mandatory to do away with the pets?

Death From Above (gates)
Alternatively, roll Endurance to recover Health, basically bracing and allowing yourself to be hit. Good tactic for me. You really want to avoid oil and wildfire, though. Maybe reduce the damage by half when rolling Endurance?

Should we expect the effects of immersion to carry over into the fight? We'd still be covered in the substance and it would take its toll from us every round, practically dealing an injury every round since wildfire doesn't go out (and if someone's hit with that, they're doomed). The minute you're hit by oil, you're fighting an uphill battle. For the sake of sanity, there could be a tub of water and some buckets nearby, in case of accidental spill. ven if one had on multiple layers of armor (people in plate armor are wearing brigandine underneath it), they still have to remove it in the middle of a fight. How long would that take? I doubt enemies will just let it happen.

Maybe I'm over-analyzing. Maybe we just handwave it and say "one and done".
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Jon Templeton on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:34 pm

Checking OOC I forgot about this thread.

I still want to do this so Jon can shout, "FIRST!"
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Ser Alfred Haigh on Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:40 pm

First through the gate would add a competitive element as well, wouldn't it ?
Atm, I'm imagining it a bit like a 400 metre sprint where everything is allowed and everyone is armed.
Last one standing wins or something like that, hahaha.
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Reader on Wed Jan 04, 2017 9:18 pm

Ser Alfred Haigh wrote:First through the gate would add a competitive element as well, wouldn't it ?
Atm, I'm imagining it a bit like a 400 metre sprint where everything is allowed and everyone is armed.
Last one standing wins or something like that, hahaha.

My intention had been to run it for a maximum of two players per siege, otherwise the honour went to an NPC. A new narrator might go down this path or see which PC can do it in the fewest rounds (which opens up a path to some of the DoS of the various rolls helping speed the process up).
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Re: Draft: First Across the Walls...

Post by Baelon Drakeson on Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:45 pm

I like the idea of it being open to anyone who wishes to try it, but there being enough risk that many would hesitate to do so.

I think the risk of capture/ransom (like with the Myr event) and/or the possibility of having to go into future battles wounded would be sufficient sticks, and then it's just a matter of having appropriate carrots & difficulties.

The "race" element of doing it the fastest fits the idea of being first, so should multiple PCs attempt and succeed at it, shortest number of rounds makes sense. If we add explicit distances to be covered, that also makes bulk significant and makes Run dice & the Fast benefit more useful.
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