[D3,ME]Seeking Understanding (Closed)

Daveth was pleased that Lord Benedict had accepted his invitation to meet. The investigation was keeping him incredibly busy, and he could only imagine how much worse it was for the Marstens. Still, he suspected that the arrival of the 'Royal Overseer' would be enough trouble to eliminate any spare time they had, so he felt he had to grab the opportunity while it presented itself.

So, here he was, at the arranged meeting spot, preparing for a hopefully pleasant evening ride, along with a group of bodyguards.

When Lord Benedict arrived within hailing distance, Daveth bows as best he can from horseback, with a friendly smile. "
Lord Benedict. It's good to see you. How are you holding up?"

Ben waves off Daveth's bow, a bit full of all the pomp and formalities. A part of him hoping that this is just a friendly ride. Making up his own mind was hard enough with out ten other voices telling what he was really thinking.

"
Good evening, Daveth. Well I believe I have pissed off one friend, had a dispute with my wife over yet again another bastard."
Ben quickly waves both palms out, to halt any interuption. "
I did not hit anyone."


"
And everything in this damn place makes no since. So I guess I am holding up as well as can be expected. How about yourself?"

Benedict Marsten wrote: "
I did not hit anyone."

Daveth gives a small snort of laughter at that.

Benedict Marsten wrote:"
And everything in this damn place makes no since. So I guess I am holding up as well as can be expected. How about yourself?"

Daveth gives a wry smile. "
Oh, we have two teams of highly competent people scouring every clue, and I *still* have no idea what's going on, just encountering layer upon layer of deceit."
he shakes his head. "
So, for what it's worth, you have my sympathy."


He brightens a bit as they set off together, bodyguard trailing behind to give them some privacy. "
Still, I'm not here to discuss the investigation - my mother is a Blackwood, and I'm staying with my family. You can't really afford to trust anything I tell you about it."
there's a certain wryly amused tone hiding in his words as he says that. "
Actually, I was hoping to discuss something with you. Now, it is a bit personal, but I'm hoping you'll indulge me,"
he gives an amused smile. "
If for no other reason than you'll be glad to talk about something other than this damned investigation for a while."


They ride on for a few more steps as Daveth organises his thoughts. "
I want to learn about knighthood."
he holds up a hand. "
And before you start laughing, no, I'm not looking to become one. Now, I can read books to get the theory, or I can speak with Ser Jorah, which basically amounts to the same thing. But to be useful, I need to understand the reality. Good men, good knights, who have applied that theory to reality, and come up with their own application of it.

"
So. You are, I believe, a follower of the Old gods. You are also a knight, which Ser Jorah describes as 'swearing an oath of fealty to the Seven, to uphold the tenets of the faith'. If I viewed you as a shallow or dishonourable man, I would think nothing of it, but you don't. From my impression of you, you only give your word when you mean it, and you try your best to be true to all the expectations your position implies.

"
So, if you are willing, I would like to hear how you've managed to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory positions."
Daveth's tone is genuinely respectful and querying, there's no indication that he's trying to expose hypocrisy or the like.

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:
"
So, for what it's worth, you have my sympathy."

Ben simply smiles and nods his thanks.

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:

"
So. You are, I believe, a follower of the Old gods. You are also a knight, which Ser Jorah describes as 'swearing an oath of fealty to the Seven, to uphold the tenets of the faith'. If I viewed you as a shallow or dishonourable man, I would think nothing of it, but you don't. From my impression of you, you only give your word when you mean it, and you try your best to be true to all the expectations your position implies.

"
So, if you are willing, I would like to hear how you've managed to reconcile these two seemingly contradictory positions."
Daveth's tone is genuinely respectful and querying, there's no indication that he's trying to expose hypocrisy or the like.

"
So you want me to bore you to sleep with my odd story."
He asks rhetorically adjusting in the saddle to get comfortable for the telling.

"
I was brought up in a house where the old gods took prominence. The Blackthornes are of the first men, but not always their women."
He gives a smirk.

The lords of Briarhall, my family seat, have married ladies form the Sisters. It began as a reconciliation and continued as tradition. All retained their belief in the seven, my grandmother most of all. We know the Seven in Briarhall."
His last words spoken with the conviction of well disciplined grandson.

Daveth doesn't seem bored by the answer, though nor is he entirely satisfied. "
Okay, I can see how you came to know about the Seven, but that's not the same thing as swearing an oath of fealty. I've read enough books to say I know about Essos, that doesn't mean I've sworn fealty to their lords. I suppose, put another way, the question is this: how can an honourable man swear an oath of fealty to gods he doesn't follow?"
He pauses a moment. "
Or would you, in fact, say that you actually do worship the Seven, but the Old gods have primacy in your heart?"

Ben again only smiles. "
That was not the end of my story just an opening for you to feign sleep and decline further boredom.

I never intended to swear any oaths. Knights in our family are rare but not unheard of. I was on my way to captain a ship when ... an unfortunate incident occureed. My grandfather pulled some of the few strings he could and I was on my way to Hartshorn to squire, still uncertain of my faith in the Seven.

It was there I met the man who showed me the Seven, Ser Markus. The man embodies their pillars. Just seeing how following them made him more than other men, brought me belief. Surely any structure that created men like that would make the world a better place.

So it was with true conviction I took my vows, believing that upholding them will bring some light in this world.

It quickly soured when I left Hartshorn to see the corruption and missuse of the Seven, but I still believe it can bring some good. Take Septon Arlyn. The man managed to get the Lord Dulver and several others to help build an orphange. He may make mistakes, his condemnation of the Frey, but His good far out weighs the misguided actions.

So to answer one of your questions, I believe in their principles and through them they exist to me."


Ben looks off in concentration as his horse slowly moves on.


"
How many leiges do you have Daveth? Firstly your Lord father, then House Stark and then finally the king. This situation is similar, but not precise.

In my eyes the old gods are my final authority, natures power and raw creation. The Seven my house, the constant structure of our society, keeping balence. And finally mine own heart, direct and reactive to the laws and structures laid down by my leiges."


Ben fidgets in his saddle, nervous, hoping he has given some clarity on the situation.

"
On a lighter note, have you ever noticed their is no way to represent the Seven without an element of the old gods. The wood and stone statues, the stain glass, the ink or paper to even write the Seven pointed star."

Daveth listens attentively, and slowly nods at the end of the explanation. "
Thank you. That does make sense. I must admit I hadn't noticed that relationship between the two sets of gods, though now you have, I'm not quite sure what to make of it."


He shakes his head of the thought. "
So, when getting to know Ser Markus, he gave you the impression that his faith made him more than other men, but you later became disillusioned. So, do you believe that faith is a mandatory part of that transcendence, or would the right man - an honourable, just, and true man - be more than other men even without faith? Or put another way, in your mind, is it man who elevates man, or is that purely the domain of the gods?"

Ben looks suspiciously over his shoulders, to make sure his grandmother is not around with that damned wooden spoon. "
Firstly I believe Ser Markus would be a good man no matter what, but he needs his faith to bolster him to guide him to be a great man a shining example of the good in man. Without it he may just lose his way.

My disillusion was more with the system built around the belief, then the belief.

There are good and virtuous men in this world that are that way without faith as we see it. Some of these men may be influenced by the gods and not even know it. A father's stern judgment, a mother's tender forgiveness...an old woman's imparted wisdom to a young boy... the strangers cold touch, the loss of a loved one. Most men lack the will and dedication to hold true. That is what the Gods offer. Call it blessing, call it fear, call it purpose. To each man it is different."


He looks over his shoulders once more. "
A man must have faith in something to stand true. I believe it may come in different forms to different people, but without it he will fall."


Ben can only chuckle as he finishes his answer. "
You came to the wrong man for an explanation of Knighthood and Gods. I have perhaps the most odd interpretation this side of Essos."

"
A man must have faith in *something*, then? Not necessarily the Seven? Hmm."
Daveth nods as if making a mental note. "
And I'm not disappointed by your answers. In many ways that's what I'm after. If I wish for a strictly orthodox view, I have but to ask Ser Jorah.

"
So, faith. What other qualities do you feel are required to make a good knight? What differentiates the Ser Markus's of the world from the Ser Benjens?"
he shrugs. "
Okay, that's probably an exaggeration. What separates the Ser Markus's of the world from the Ser Pietr the Medicore's of the world?"

"
Like I pointed out, it is easy to trace the most common thing back to the Seven. Where you feel the root of that faith comes from is irrelevant in my eyes. The Seven are like a pair of Maesters reading glasses the help man see faith clearly."


On Daveth's follow-up question on knighthood Ben takes a moment to think. His right hand scratches at his chin. His left holding the reins to Strax loosely. He turns to look directly at Daveth. "
Loyalty. Dedication. Compassion. I can spout off adjectives all day. The ground work is laid out in the vows a knight takes. The key to it all ... is descriptionless. If I were to try and put it into a word ... heart.

Many would say it takes bravery, but Ser Markus readily admits fear and still faces it. Strength, Ser Markus in his years now still best men half his age. Kindness, that man can be meaner than a hornets nest to a squire.

I wish I could elaborate more. I will freely admit true knights are far and few in my eyes. Sadly society has a lower standard I believe."

Hmm. Sounds like what Yoren said about each faith having fragments of truth in them.

Daveth gives a wry smile. "
Glad it's not just me who has difficulty figuring it out. 'Heart', then?"
He sighs. "
Not exactly the easiest thing to divine in a man."


He pauses, frowns, and looks across at the lord. "
Any knight can make a knight. Which means you could, if you wanted. I'm aware there's the usual process of squiring and years of training and so forth. But aside from that method, what sort of actions would you see and think 'that man deserves to be a knight'? Is there anything so, for lack of a better term, 'knightly' that were you to see it, would make you knight someone on the spot? Or do you think that's the kind of rash action that near-inevitably results in rotten knights?"

"
For lack of better term. Heart. True knights do we what is right even when its not popular or beneficial. To do that you must bypass your brain, and reason. Ones strength may aid but can not drive you forward. Heart."
He shrugs.

"
Here is where I have become disillusioned. Society uses what should be a selective position as just another title or honor. The act of squiring was meant to create that Heart and instill the tenants. Now it is coddling some nobles child and teaching him to fight.

About knighting on the spot, yes. If I were able to see that thing that separates the good from the great. Like you said it is a hard thing to divine in a man. Hence the close relationship between knight and squire. What better we to know a man then spend a year or two eating, sleeping, training and fighting together?"

Daveth nods, thoughtfully. "
Hmm. Tell me: you are a lord, a knight, and a father - congratulations on that by the way, sorry, should have said that earlier, though I believe you got my note, such blessings should also be congratulated in person.

"
Anyway, a lord, a knight, and a father. To my eye, there is a conflict between the three. The former requires that you use your brain to prioritise what is best for your house, within the bounds of morality. The middle requires that you use your heart to prioritise what is morally right, even when its not popular or beneficial. And the latter mandates that you prioritise your child's well-being over your own concerns.

"
Do you agree there's a conflict between the three roles? Not that someone can't be good at all three, but maybe they can't be great at more than one. And if so, do you know which is the most important role to you?"

"
In my eyes they are one in the same. My house is my family. I see how you can interpret it sepeartely, but what I do for one I do for all. The right choices may sometimes hinder progression in the here and now but as with ones house and children, it is all about the future.

What is a lord if not a father to his people, ask Lord Tullison he will tell you the same as his descendants are know for their care of smallfolk. I do agree they do not have to be mutually exclusive and picking one over the other would give you and may give you and edge, but to what end.

If you forsake your children for house then the house may fall when your inadequate heirs come to Lordship. If you forsake your vows and morales then so will your house and children. Leading to the demise of house and children.

It's all connected like the old gods and the Seven. Like everything in life.

I feel you have me prattling on like maester with no chain in a port city for pint of ale."
Ben blushes at his own long winded and romantical insights.

Daveth smiles back. "
Nonsense. You aren't citing nearly enough old maesters. If you want to imitate one of them, you have to begin every sentence with 'well, according a maester so-and-so in his seminal treatise such-and-such...', else no one could possibly take you seriously."


He moves along a few steps in silence before continuing, more sombre. "
Has it properly sunk in yet? The lordship? The responsibility you now have? Do you feel The Weight?"

"
Oh yes. Very much. At first I threw myself into practice in the yard and working with the men. After the war with the clans I began to feel it. I convinced Corrine to offer the remaining clansmen asylum. It was not taken well and caused a few problems for us, but I had to help maneuver the house through it. In the end I feel it will be beneficial."


Throwing his hands in the air he looks to Daveth with feigned disbelief. "
This Cog, that we are currently floating down a river of shite, has more holes than suit of chainmail. And for cargo we figuratively and literally carry wildfire. How is that for weight?"

(OOC: Apologies for the delay in response. Got tied up in more important threads, trying to quickly tidy up unfinished threads now.)

Daveth snorts. "
That's among the better analogies I've heard. Wait until you have to juggle at the same time."


He carries on for a few steps before looking over at the young lord. "
I understand that, under the current circumstances, what we can do is limited by politics, but, now or in the future, don't forget that I am your friend."
he extends a hand to shake. "
Be it advice, help, or simply an excuse to get out and smell the evening air and get away from the relentless crush of politics, you can always at least ask me."
a small grin. "
Just don't ask *me* for advice if you want a short answer."

It was Ben's turn to snort. His words were true, never expect a "
yes"
or "
no"
answer from Daveth "
Longwind"
Coldbrook. Always thorough.

"
I appreciate it Daveth, sincerely. It is pleasant to talk with a friend about something other than this task."

Daveth smiles and nods. "
For me as well. Let us hope we have more opportunities in the future."


(OOC: And I think that's /thread from my end.)

(Ooc:/scene)