[D1 Early Evening] Conversation with Daveth (Open)

Baelon was making his way towards the back of the room where he was less likely to draw the sour gaze of the Lady when a man of about his age and looking to be on the verge of a nervous breakdown all but barged into him with some barely audible... well, he said something, but Baelon didn't quite catch it. Feeling a bit of pity for the fellow, Baelon gently took his elbow and steered him to the back of the crowd, making small talk to try and calm him, but apparently failing utterly for no explicable reason.

"
-a pleasure, and you are?"

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:"
Master Daveth Coldbrook, the pleasure is all mine."

"
Well, Master Daveth, is Riverrun far from House Coldbrook's lands?

(OOC: Heee. This should be fun! Worth asking now, are you wearing your coat of arms anywhere visible? I'm not sure what the 'norm' is in these kind of circumstances.)

Baelon wrote:"
Well, Master Daveth, is Riverrun far from House Coldbrook's lands?

Daveth's eyes quickly flicker over his conversation partner's features. Silver hair, Amethyst eyes. Well, that helps narrow it down, I suppose. Also raises the stakes somewhat. Play this wrong, and if he's close, I could very easily wind up dead. Still, and Daveth feels a calm settle over him. He has a known problem, and solving problems is what he does. Never falter!

"
Oh, a moderate distance, to be fair. Our lands are at the far end of the Green Fork of the Trident. Still, the journey was not too onerous. I much prefer travelling south to north - there just always seems to be more *life* in the Riverlands, a ... vibrancy, if you will. The North and its people are like a rock. Solid, reliable, unwearing, and I won't say a bad thing about them, but there is definitely a ... a different beauty to be seen passing though these lands, that helps pass the days quickly."
he quickly laughs, a more relaxed laugh than he would have been able to manage earlier. "
Still, maybe it is the difference that interests me. Were I living here, mayhap I'd find the North the most fascinating place to travel. How about you, what's your take?"

Baelon is wearing formal attire, of decent quality and recent style, but not ostentatious. Where the wealthier lords are wearing jeweled silks and velvets, his brocaded doublet is of high quality linen. He is not wearing his arms, but he is in his colors - not that those are any more helpful than his eyes and hair - his doublet is brocaded red-on-burgundy, with a sleeveless jerkin of fine black leather buttoned at the waist and open above. He is wearing red hose with black thigh-high boots.

"
The north is cold and hard, and it's people often match it. Still, the wall was a sight to see. I agree though,"
his eyes track a beautiful young woman crossing the room "
there is more vibrancy here."

He smiles. "
I myself have just come from the mountains of the Vale;
not so cold as the north, but the people can still be a bit stony at times."

(Great description of your clothes, there. Clothing is one of those things I can never really 'do' properly in my narration.)

Daveth notices Baelon's eyes' motion, and combined with his words, can guess what attracted his eye without even turning. A small grin briefly escapes his mask, one born of comfortable familiarity from seeing his brother do much the same thing so many times before.

Still, he looks down. "
You shame me."
his tone carefully non-accusatory. "
Here I stand, of a Northern house, and you've seen more of our wonders than I have. It is to my constant regret that my duties leave me so little time to spend outside either our lands, or at most, our neighbours'. Still, you seem well-travelled, and certainly a man of"
a quirk of the corner of his mouth "
refined tastes. Which land calls to you the strongest? If time is short, I feel it's better to simply accept that, and make best use of it, than to be curmudgeonly about it, and fritter it away on pointless grousing."

"
One man's blessing is another man's curse, I suppose - being able to travel is one of the few benefits of life as a hedge knight, yet few would choose it over a life of stability and family."

Not that I ever slept under a hedge...
"
Every land has it's wonders and it's beauties, but Dragonstone lies closest to my heart. 'Hearth and home', as they say. I've not been back since I left, almost two years ago. Soon though, I hope to at least visit."

(OOC: Okay. Baelon is, if I recall from your character description, well-known by reputation at the very least. Now that I know your 'profession' and your home (and can be pretty sure of at least a portion of your parentage), do you reckon that would be enough for a Cunning/Memory roll for Daveth to put the clues together? I'm not sure how many people that description would cover. I appreciate that this is a problem I brought on myself, so it wouldn't be terrible if I simply decided I did work it out, but I'd rather let the dice decide how long it plays out for.)

"
True enough. I am certainly blessed with my family, and would choose them over freedom any day.

"
Though I admit to curiosity. You mentioned spending time in the Vale. Were you fighting the mountain clans? Last I heard, they're being more troublesome than usual."

"
I've fought in more than a few skirmishes alongside, but no major assaults. The mountain clans are pernicious pests. They raid our villages and merchants, then get upset when we attack them back. Every time, they declare a new blood feud or three. They breed like rabbits;
it truly seems there will be no end to them. With a large enough force we could disperse them for a time - but I have no doubts that in a decade or two we would have a fresh crop of raiders screaming for our blood."


OOC: I've dropped enough hints that I have no problem either way. You've definitely at least heard of Baelon, but whether you link the name to the person is a separate matter. In particular, you may have heard about a Targaryan knight fighting with House Marsten against the Blackwoods;
you also may have seen him in person at tournaments. I'd say that there is a good chance that you would be able to put it all together by now.

(Right. I decided to do a Cunning test, mostly as an experiment as I've not used this dice roller before, to see if I'm using it right as much as anything.
[url=Memory test regarding Baelon:][/url] 11
Ah-HA! That's how you get the urls to work. Great. Okay, I figure 9 is good enough (I appreciate for a 'real' test, Reader would set the difficulty, but this is hopefully informal enough to not need that since I'm basically just using it as a guide for character reaction.)

Daveth is careful to conceal his expression as the penny finally drops. Ooooooh. It's him! Gaerys! No, wait. Baelon! Ser Baelon Waters! Thank the gods I finally figured that one out. A momentary pause in his thoughts. I'm not sure if him meeting my brother would be the best thing ever, or the worst. Might be worth seeing if I can do that, just to find out. he thinks, only half-seriously.

"
Well, to be fair, they're hardly the only ones. I seem to recall you distinguished yourself supporting the Marstens recently in a conflict that will probably be even more eternal. Naming no names, of course."


Do I dare ask? He may take insult. a momentary pause. Yes, yes, 'never falter', but that doesn't preclude things like 'stopping while you're ahead'. On the other hand, really, how else would you ever find out the answer?

He beings speaking in a somewhat halting manner. "
Actually, speaking of such, did you, by any chance, get to interact with any of the main Marstens much?"
he holds up a hand in apology, and speaks a bit quicker. "
Now, feel free to say if you feel I'm prying, I certainly don't want to be encouraging you to betray any confidences, but I'll explain why I'm asking. Our houses are basically polar opposites - ours is young and, well, not that respected;
while their history is long, and they are an incredibly respected across the kingdom. And yet, despite that, despite all the differences, from what I hear, our circumstances are not that different with regards to the next generation. And I admit to burning with curiosity. In such a circumstance, would you say that such a history as theirs is a strength, giving them guidance and purpose, and the will to forge the world to their desires;
or is it merely a pressure, the weight of ages bearing down on their shoulders, all the expectations of others weighing them down?"
a momentary pause for breath, before continuing at a more normal pace. "
Please forgive me if you consider the question too personal - certainly, I imagine you may well have your own opinion on the matter. But since hearing about their circumstances, and knowing of our own, I've been curious as to if our brevity is more a blessing or a curse in these circumstances."

"
That's an interesting question... I can honestly say I had never considered it before."

He ponders.
"
I think that everyone fights to hold on to what they have, and whether it is a young house or an old one just changes the way you think about it. The lord of a young house might think of that fight as providing for his heirs, and a lord of an old house might think of it as honoring his ancestors;
but in the end it's the same damn fight."

Daveth slowly nods at the answer, a small smile on his face. After considering it for a few seconds, he replies. "
Yes, I can see the sense there."
a deep nod of appreciation. "
Thank you. Honestly, I had given up on finding a credible answer to that one. It is good to finally lay that mental itch to rest."
a brief bigger smile crosses his face. "
And please, forgive me the strangeness of my questions. Ever since I was a child, I have been insatiably curious about almost anything."


He pauses a moment, clearly considering something. "
You have been most kind in answering my questions so far, I fear to impose on your generosity further, but I do have one further question. One that I feel you could have great insight into. However, I also fear it may be rather personal, and I have no desire to reward your kindness with insult. So, I beg of you, if you would take insult from my query, imagine if instead I asked you about the weather on your trip over, and we will both forget I ever asked."


Speaking quieter, and looking around first to spot any obvious eavesdroppers. "
It's about my brother, Garret Snow."
a glance at Baelon's face to see if he's already overstepped his bounds. "
I fear he takes others opinion of him, based purely on his name, to heart, and doesn't see what he can be as I do. If I could, I would have him shake off those chains and become the man I believe he can and should be. But I cannot pretend that I fully understand the situation he is in, in anything other than an intellectual sense, and that is of no use in an emotional issue. Might you have an idea as to the best way forwards? I fully understand if the answer is 'no', you've never met the man, and every person is defined by far more than just their name, but"
he shrugs his shoulders. "
I'm willing to hope."

"
I take it by 'name' you mean being born on the wrong side of the sheets."

He shakes his head disapprovingly.
"
Don't beat around the bush so much, all those 'forehand apologies and whatnot are more annoying than the questions."

He sighs.
"
Look, if your brother lets how others treat him shape who he is, then he's a fool. If you think you can change the way the world treats him, you're a fool."

A fire burns deep in his eyes.
"
There's only one way to get respect in this world - take it. It doesn't matter what your name is or your station in life. If your deeds demand respect you will be respected. If not, you'll get nothing but pretty words and false smiles - or worse."


Why is he putting so much stock in my answers? I'm no Septon or Maester...

Daveth nods, apologetically. "
I'm sorry. And I have no illusions over changing how the world treats him, I merely wish to change how he reacts to it. Maybe he is a fool for letting it affect him, but he's my brother, so I'll do what I can for him, regardless.

"
And your answer supports the vicious circle I expected."
He sighs. "
Still, you prove it's possible, so I'm not going to give up."
his face serious. "
Even if he can't be spared from our house to carve his deeds across the land as you have, I'm determined to find a way."


Daveth's face darkens. "
If we are to gain respect, it will be on the battlefield, in fire and blood, led by my brother. We have the men - those who are truly battle-hardened, masters of their field. What we need is the right opportunity to use them, to get a result that would demand the respect you mention."
his eyes flicker to Baelon's momentarily. "
Tell me, in your opinion: were we to offer these men's assistance to the Marstens in bringing about that decade of peace from raiding you mentioned, might they accept, or would they take it as an insult, that they are unable to take care of it themselves? To be seen as instrumental in helping a house as respected as they in troubled times would seem a good path to follow."

Baelon smiles, the fire in his eyes dwindling to it's normal congenial spark.

"
Your brother is lucky to have you. As for the Marstens, I suspect that they would appreciate the offer. The clans are a problem that exceeds any one House, I think. If you would like though, I can broach the subject with Ser Markus and Lady Isobel privately before any formal discussions."

Daveth gives a small smile of relief, and a nod. "
Thank you. And yes, if you would broach the subject, I would be indebted to you. I am in no position to speak formally for my house, but I'm confident that my father can be convinced of the benefits of the arrangement."

"
Consider it done. I cannot speak for Lady Marsten, but I see no reason that both houses cannot benefit from such an endeavor."

He smiles.

"
So tell me - what are you looking forward to the most at this event? I suspect I won't be seeing your name on the melee roster..."


Intrigue - Initiative
Goal: Friendship
[url=Initiative - Status(Reputation)][/url]: 3d6 13
Disposition: Indifferent (+0 Per, +0 Dec, 4 DR)
Intrigue Defense: 8
Composure: 9

(OOC: Oooh! Something else new for me. Not sure how this works. Let's see.)

Daveth snorts. "
You are quite correct, good Ser. Instead I will be doing what I always do: support my family and house so that they may focus their attention on such matters without concern."


Goal: Friendship
Initiative: Eloquent (believe it or not )
Disposition: Had to think about this, but I think your answers, combined with your offering to help, mean I'm going to start with 'Amiable': (+1 Per, +0 Dec, DR 3). Unless this is supposed to be my disposition when we first started talking? In which case it'd be 'Indifferent': (+0 Per, +0 Dec, DR 4).
Intrigue Defence: 9
Composure: 9

I haven't seen one of these playing out before, so I'm guessing since I have initiative, I declare my first action?
Consider (+2B on one test next exchange)

Edit: Okay, so as I understand things now, it's my disposition towards you at the start of the *intrigue*, not the conversation. So, yeah, amiable. You indulged his curiosity and offered to help him out. Both good ways to narratively raise his disposition. Don't know if I'm screwing myself over mechanically, but eh.

OOC:

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:
Disposition: Had to think about this, but I think your answers, combined with your offering to help, mean I'm going to start with 'Amiable': (+1 Per, +0 Dec, DR 3). Unless this is supposed to be my disposition when we first started talking? In which case it'd be 'Indifferent': (+0 Per, +0 Dec, DR 4).

Remember, each particpant can evolve their Disposition by one step temporarily at the start of each turn. Your permanent Disposition may currently be indifferent, but you can evolve it to amiable at the start of the first exchange. You can always evolve up, but you may not evolve down if you were influenced in the previous exchange.

Once the Intrigue is over... your disposition returns to it's permanent level... then is modified by any results of the intrigue.

Nathaniel Mason wrote:OOC:Remember, each particpant can evolve their Disposition by one step temporarily at the start of each turn. Your permanent Disposition may currently be indifferent, but you can evolve it to amiable at the start of the first exchange. You can always evolve up, but you may not evolve down if you were influenced in the previous exchange.

Once the Intrigue is over... your disposition returns to it's permanent level... then is modified by any results of the intrigue.

I'd missed that, thanks. That's very helpful, and very clear. So, my permanent disposition will be 'Indifferent', but I've evolved it to 'Amiable' at the start of the first exchange.

OOC:

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:I'd missed that, thanks. That's very helpful, and very clear. So, my permanent disposition will be 'Indifferent', but I've evolved it to 'Amiable' at the start of the first exchange.

Exactly. If you were to lose this friendship intrigue (with a Charm Influence defeat) your Disposition would drop back to Indifferent at the end of the Intrigue from wherever it had evolved to and then shift permanently up by one (or more if the person had something like Magnetic)

The distinction between permanent disposition and temporary disposition is important. For example, if you were to lose to a Seduce Influence defeat, your temporary disposition may go straight to Affectionate, but you would shift down a step each day until you hit your permanent disposition which is, in fact, one step lower than it was before the Intrigue. Your permanent disposition would also have an effect on the outcome of the Intrigue if you did not start with at least Amiable or higher.

OOC:

Nathaniel Mason wrote:OOC:

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:I'd missed that, thanks. That's very helpful, and very clear. So, my permanent disposition will be 'Indifferent', but I've evolved it to 'Amiable' at the start of the first exchange.

Exactly. If you were to lose this friendship intrigue (with a Charm Influence defeat) your Disposition would drop back to Indifferent at the end of the Intrigue from wherever it had evolved to and then shift permanently up by one (or more if the person had something like Magnetic)

The distinction between permanent disposition and temporary disposition is important. For example, if you were to lose to a Seduce Influence defeat, your temporary disposition may go straight to Affectionate, but you would shift down a step each day until you hit your permanent disposition which is, in fact, one step lower than it was before the Intrigue. Your permanent disposition would also have an effect on the outcome of the Intrigue if you did not start with at least Amiable or higher.

Whoa there! What "
permanent disposition"
? That is not a term used anywhere in the Intrigue chapter. Your Seduction example only talks about disposition and starting disposition. The latter is set at the beginning of every intrigue and, in the case of Seduction, is only important for the long term consequences. The immediate consequences depend on the disposition you had when the intrigue ended. (though perhaps this is just a case of your terminology confusing me)

Your example about winning by Charm is wrong - starting disposition is not mentioned in the consequences of defeat, so the improvement to the loser's disposition would be from whatever it was when the intrigue ended. There is no "
reset"
involved before applying the consequences.

My advice to Daveth is to read each technique carefully, especially the consequences of defeat section, since the effect of losing is unique for each one.

OOC:

Jon Cobb wrote:Your example about winning by Charm is wrong - starting disposition is not mentioned in the consequences of defeat, so the improvement to the loser's disposition would be from whatever it was when the intrigue ended. There is no "
reset"
involved before applying the consequences.

My advice to Daveth is to read each technique carefully, especially the consequences of defeat section, since the effect of losing is unique for each one.

In our game have always considered effects of the Evolving Disposition rule was confined to the Intrigue, as Carriker said in the old forums that it was intended to represent the current view of the opponent. (I am Affectionate to my wife but sometimes I Dislike her a lot.)

I was just trying to be helpful. I'd be happy to debate the rule with you, but we should probably do so outside of this thread.

OOC: I agree that it needs discussing, so I'll set up a thread for that.

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:Daveth snorts. "
You are quite correct, good Ser. Instead I will be doing what I always do: support my family and house so that they may focus their attention on such matters without concern."

"
So you work so your family can have fun. I wish I had kin like you. Your house is lucky to have someone of such devotion and talent."


Intrigue (Exchange 1, part 2)
Goal: Friendship
Initiative: 13 (vs. Eloquent)
Disposition: Indifferent (+0 Per, +0 Dec, 4 DR)
Intrigue Defense: 8
Composure: 9

Action: [url=Persuasion(Charm)][/url]: 6d6+2 25 1d6 6 1d6 1;
The 6 replaces the 1, for a total of 30, capped at 4 DoS
Effect: 4 DoS * 4 Inf/Dos - 3 DR = 13 Influence

OOC: Whoa. Whoa. Baelon is quite the charming bastard, but that was also a very lucky roll.
You may know this already, if so, forgive me for assuming otherwise. I'd rather be helpful when it's not needed than not be helpful when it is.
You do not have to concede defeat at this point;
instead you may take frustration to lower the influence done, at the cost of -1D per frustration on persuasion/deception checks for the remainder of the intrigue. From your 9 Composure I am presuming that you have Will 3;
so you can take 2 points of frustration to lower the influence to 7 and have 2 Composure remaining. Of course, being at -2D and 2 DoS away from defeat, there may not be much you can do other than yield and offer terms.

(OOC: Don't worry about being too helpful, even if I was fairly sure that was how it works, it's always nice to have confirmation.

Still, one thing I'm not following: I'm guessing you have 'Attractive', which is what those additional 1d6 rolls were for? If so, why did you only roll 2 dice, doesn't it give 1 reroll per 2 Persuasion, and since you're rolling 6d6, wouldn't that mean you could reroll 3 dice? Not that you'd use it, I'm just trying to get my head around the mechanics involved.

Also: wow. rank 6, with attractive and charismatic (I'm assuming) means better than base rank 7, which is talent that gets you into legends. I never really stood a chance.

So, yes. I am going to take 2 frustration and yield, offering a 1-step raise in disposition (to friendly, I believe? Don't have my books handy.) Just in case you have Magnetic to complete the trifecta. Seems a bit implausible I'd go further than that for a first meeting, regardless of how charming you are.)

Daveth Coldbrook wrote:(OOC: Don't worry about being too helpful, even if I was fairly sure that was how it works, it's always nice to have confirmation.

Still, one thing I'm not following: I'm guessing you have 'Attractive', which is what those additional 1d6 rolls were for? If so, why did you only roll 2 dice, doesn't it give 1 reroll per 2 Persuasion, and since you're rolling 6d6, wouldn't that mean you could reroll 3 dice? Not that you'd use it, I'm just trying to get my head around the mechanics involved.

Also: wow. rank 6, with attractive and charismatic (I'm assuming) means better than base rank 7, which is talent that gets you into legends. I never really stood a chance.

So, yes. I am going to take 2 frustration and yield, offering a 1-step raise in disposition (to friendly, I believe? Don't have my books handy.) Just in case you have Magnetic to complete the trifecta. Seems a bit implausible I'd go further than that for a first meeting, regardless of how charming you are.)

OOC: He doesn't have Persuasion 6, he's stacking Famous, Attractive and (probably) Blood of Valyria. Famous lets you use your bonus dice in Charm and Seduction as test dice. So his Persuasion is 4.

With just 6d6+2 the average roll is about 23, so even with an average roll he would almost hit you for 4 DoS (9+15 = 24). Not that much luck involved at all, really. :;
):

So unless you have major intrigue offense built in to your character, going first was never going to do much for you and you really didn't stand a chance.