Game Discussion

Dunstan Tullison wrote:I think Hardy is the weakest benefit, never used it once

yeah.. its pretty bad.

Especially in a system where Maesters can patch you up.

Marginally useful if you plan on having the crap beat out of you a lot and there are no healers accessible.

Yeah, a lot of the benefits are much more useful in live play than in pbp. Here we go from scenario to scenario and there's time in between to heal up.

In my live game I had to drag a wound for a long time and failed a whole lot of tests where Hardy would be beneficial.

Reader, that sounds great. I made a post in my private forum. Thanks.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Famous throws your charm up into dice pools that outguns everyone else, I don't see you reacting to that, even if that quality so far has been considerably more powerful for events/investigations than a cohort that could have assisted on everything.

I object, and I challenge your math.

First off, as far as I am aware, I am the only character remaining with Famous, and I also did quite well in the story 1 events... so even if you do not mention me by name it is pretty clear about whom you are talking. It feels, to be honest, like a bit of a personal attack.

Second, comparing Famous, which only affects two specialties of persuasion, is a far cry from a cohort which can assist on everything. A benefit that applies narrowly should apply a larger bonus than one that applies broadly - assuming that balance between benefits is deemed desirable.

Finally, the math:
Famous can throw charm up into dice pools that outgun everyone else, but it is an over-generalization to imply that it always does.
I have Persuasion 4 and 2b in charm. With Famous, that gives me 6d6. That seems awfully powerful - but it is only on average (mean) exactly 21. That is on average about 4 higher than the base 6d6k4 (mean 17.34). Significant right? Well, not much more than the +1D that I would get from Expertise. In fact, due to the effect of bonus dice on the bell curve, Expertise would actually grant a higher bonus on average! The mean on 7d6k5 is 21.15, and has a lower standard deviation, so Expertise is going to produce good results more consistently than Famous, too.
Of course, Famous also affects Seduce (which I have not used nearly as much as I thought I would), so it is not an exact comparison - on the other hand, that requires an additional XP investment so it is not exactly a 'free' additional effect. Famous also gives a penalty on stealth checks as a counterbalance, which Expertise does not.
Net result: Famous is powerful and can be abused, but I am by far NOT "
outgunning"
everyone else.

Reader wrote:I can manage Famous by capping bonus dice (and I have done so). Somebody could get to a similar pool via expertise and a high ability.

Wait, there's a cap? I didn't know that - probably because I feel that 6d6 is powerful enough, and haven't sought to increase it - though I wouldn't mind adding a bonus die or two even if they don't become test dice.

Well, the main restriction I would have liked to seen on famous is the debate about the utility of charm (as in, you use it to get friends, and then maybe they do stuff for you on account of improved disposition, which is powerful enough IMO) and that I think that events and investigations should be tied to specific techniques (and different ones from event to event), I don't really like social dice pools at 5+ because the developers did not know what that does to their system, famous on a 4 pushes it up into those ranks, as would expertise(charm), but that is another debate. Famous on top of persuasion 5 would outgun everyone else though.

Common for both those two qualities is that they provide considerably more power in the PC vs PC sphere than unhinged cohorts could have done, which is kinda my point.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Well, the main restriction I would have liked to seen on famous is the debate about the utility of charm (as in, you use it to get friends, and then maybe they do stuff for you on account of improved disposition, which is powerful enough IMO)

I actually more or less agree on that point. I think Charm should be able to be used for other purposes as well, but not to the extent that other techniques can. Charm might be used to influence an in-the-moment decision (such as whether or not to reveal a certain piece of information, or sign a document, etc) but other than the disposition bump and +1D it shouldn't have long-term effects. If you want someone to act a specific way more than a few minutes afterward (i.e. another timeslot), another technique would be necessary.

Theomore Tullison wrote:and that I think that events and investigations should be tied to specific techniques (and different ones from event to event)

This I strongly disagree with - at least for many events (such as the Bread and Salt) it is all about making an impression. As for investigating, there are so many different ways to get information out of someone that it seems odd to restrict it to any one - though there should be consequences to our choices - if one uses Bargain, Intimidate, or Seduce the consequences are obvious. Taunt should have similar results to intimidate (you goad into action, but they dislike you for it afterwards). Charm and Convince are the hardest to come with consequences for... but it could be done.

Theomore Tullison wrote:I don't really like social dice pools at 5+ because the developers did not know what that does to their system, famous on a 4 pushes it up into those ranks, as would expertise(charm), but that is another debate. Famous on top of persuasion 5 would outgun everyone else though.

I think this argument applies well beyond the social sphere, and honestly i think it's a bit disingenuous for you to make this complaint - Treachery makes your deceptions about as powerful (and far more versatile) than Famous makes my persuasion.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Common for both those two qualities is that they provide considerably more power in the PC vs PC sphere than unhinged cohorts could have done, which is kinda my point.

I don't know about that. Having an unrestricted cohort can mean always having someone to back you up with assists or mollification in addition to the (highly significant) +2 defense, or (almost) always having an 4+ attribute to roll on a test. That is a huge advantage, albeit one that is hard to quantify.

Well, my take on charm has always been that it makes people like you, perhaps trust you more, definitively more likely to wish to help you and more willing to take risks and effort to help you. But they still have their interests and agendas and opinions that they will continue to pursue no matter how much they adore you.

The part about event/investigations, it is my general opinion that they should be designed so as to cater to different types of character. My main beef is really that almost every social event we have, there's glory for the highest total persuasion/deception (any), roll. What I would have liked for is that this is avoided in the overall design. Make the circumstances of the events and investigation such that different specializations comes into play. People that knows things that demands to be paid to divulge info, captives that starts with a negative disposition towards interrogators so that intimidation is needed to make them talk, witnesses that must be convinced that no harm will come to them if they testify etc...just because they like you does not necessarily mean that they'll do something they think foolish. Similarly for events. Say Black vs Green, tempers flare, are they going to stop hate people just because they like you? Are they going to not want to hurt those people? They won't want to hit you in the face, sure. They'll probably still hit that other guy in the face unless you convince or threaten them not to. Or you could taunt or incite them to hit harder. The people involved could matter, too. Lord Tully would probably be considerably more receptive to a Bargain....since he sure loves his coin. Haig Bracken might prefer incite against the Blackwoods. Benji Blackwood is a child, so charm probably works wonders there. Prince Daemon on the other hand, would probably say "
next!"
if you try to charm him. That's more of a metagame perspective, where I think reader should tailor the events and personalities involved so that different techniques are more appropriate, rewarding those that actually spent XP on those areas.

Now, I have many not so nice things to say about the SA narrators, but what they did really, really well, was event design. Pretty much all of them had the following format:

Three TN9 tests, each with a different ability under most circumstances, and usually with different specialties as well, sometimes options for cheating was available. Typically, you gained glory for succeeding at all three, and whoever got the most DoS got additional glory, sometimes the best two could get it. The effect being a much better distribution. If you kept that one persuasion roll, but accompanied it by two other tests as well such as two out of awareness, cunning, language and status (and mixing it, you can get 6 combination of persuasion+2 out of just that, before applying specialities) , then you wouldn't get the effect that I felt we had in chapter 1, namely that if you weren't Theo, a strong fighter/jouster, or someone with a 5+ persuasion dice pool, then there weren't much glory to be had for you.

Treacherous only apply when I do deception though, and only when I do intrigue, and it's still below famous in what it does, so I'd buy that comparison if you used other things than charm, flexibility is nice, but if you're a one-trick pony that can do that one trick all the time, it doesn't really matter much (Baelon doesn't quite qualify as a one-trick pony, but he can use his best trick almost all the time thus far). And I can't remember an event where deception was anything more than an option you could do instead of persuasion. Granted, if it is an option to be used instead of all persuasion tests, it does become stronger if events starts demanding different sort of techniques.

An unhinged cohort does carry a bit of responsibility, yes. Raff for example, has terrible persuasion, so his mollification will frequently fail, his assists would work out better, but still only +1, so he isn't much good aside from the added Intrigue Defense. Ben isn't all that strong in intrigue, I think, so while Ellie can prop him up nicely, he's still some distance away from being able to hash it out with the best ones. Theo on the other hand, with full assistance from Raff, would be able to match Baelon down to within 0.1 percentage point on pretty much everything in a charm vs charm intrigue (using deception on Theo's part), the slight upper hand being gained by Theo's reputation die, and I think Theo has more resources expended on intrigue (better deception, awareness and cunning, more specialties than I have seen Baelon using) though he has more versatility for it. Baelon is better in a fight, maybe not so in a joust (and I am pretty sure Theo can cheat in that joust without Baelon ever catching on, and then Theo should win). It should be noted that I use persuasion, too, but Theo is kinda turning into a habitual liar that enjoys it a bit too much. Theo assisted by Ellie? That would probably not be okay.

Now, if Raff had persuasion 4 to do mollification with, that would immediately make the dynamic duo able to take on any PC that doesn't get to bring help to the party, and probably have the best odds of winning, too. That's one reason for why he doesn't have it. The main reason being that Raff is supposed to sneak, cheat, steal and lie, most of the time in a thread of his own, which he does have 4's to be effective at. I'll use him for boosters when I can, and it makes sense with the story. As he is, he doesn't do much more than give a +2 to intrigue defense, which I think is fair to bring against PC's with 5+ dice pools, but he'll be off doing other stuff if I feel I have a 50% or better chance of winning an intrigue with another PC without his assistance. Either way, Theo rarely breaks into the 20's with or without Raff's help, whereas others frequently punches way past that, so I kinda do not see the issue. The issue arises when someone that often pushes dice rolls up into 25+ gets a cohort that brings even more dakka to the party comes along, or the cohort covers up an achilles heel of a character . You kinda need to look at the entire character sheet, and often how those numbers works out in play as well. A benefit's power is primarily determined by it's potential, and the potential of cohort along with a few others (famous, eloquent, massive, expertise and AXFII springs to mind) is high enough that the narrator needs to keep close watch on their usage. To my eye, I do not see Ellie and Raff bringing Ben and Theo up to a mechanical power level that isn't matched by several other PC's, even without . Nor have they given powers over the story that haven't been matched by other PC's.

Cohorts can potentially bring their PC's up to a power level other PC's can't match, and the narrator should speak softly about his big stick if that ever looks like it might be happening.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Well, my take on charm has always been that it makes people like you, perhaps trust you more, definitively more likely to wish to help you and more willing to take risks and effort to help you. But they still have their interests and agendas and opinions that they will continue to pursue no matter how much they adore you.

I completely agree with this. However, in the spur of the moment, when everyone is feeling good, sometimes people just give in to something even when they know they shouldn't. It's why lobbyists treat politicians so well. In short, it works.

Theomore Tullison wrote:The part about event/investigations, it is my general opinion that they should be designed so as to cater to different types of character. My main beef is really that almost every social event we have, there's glory for the highest total persuasion/deception (any), roll. What I would have liked for is that this is avoided in the overall design. Make the circumstances of the events and investigation such that different specializations comes into play. People that knows things that demands to be paid to divulge info, captives that starts with a negative disposition towards interrogators so that intimidation is needed to make them talk, witnesses that must be convinced that no harm will come to them if they testify etc...just because they like you does not necessarily mean that they'll do something they think foolish.

Actually, people do a lot of foolish things for people they like, often without realizing it. Peer pressure, desire for acceptance, halo effect, force of personality, idolization - whatever term you want to use, these are all forms of Charm (or at least can be - some could be implemented other ways as well).

Theomore Tullison wrote:Similarly for events. Say Black vs Green, tempers flare, are they going to stop hate people just because they like you? Are they going to not want to hurt those people? They won't want to hit you in the face, sure. They'll probably still hit that other guy in the face unless you convince or threaten them not to. Or you could taunt or incite them to hit harder. The people involved could matter, too. Lord Tully would probably be considerably more receptive to a Bargain....since he sure loves his coin. Haig Bracken might prefer incite against the Blackwoods. Benji Blackwood is a child, so charm probably works wonders there. Prince Daemon on the other hand, would probably say "
next!"
if you try to charm him. That's more of a metagame perspective, where I think reader should tailor the events and personalities involved so that different techniques are more appropriate, rewarding those that actually spent XP on those areas.

The problem I have with this is that forcing a particular choice of technique (which is essentially what is happening when you specify a persuasion specialty) just seems... arbitrary. Perhaps certain techniques would be more effective in certain circumstances, but that shouldn't force the choice. Persuasion (and to a lesser extent Deception) specialties are not like other specialties - to get information out of someone you could use one of several different specialties, but Orientation will not help you find food and Hunt will not keep you from getting lost.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Treacherous only apply when I do deception though, and only when I do intrigue, and it's still below famous in what it does, so I'd buy that comparison if you used other things than charm, flexibility is nice, but if you're a one-trick pony that can do that one trick all the time, it doesn't really matter much (Baelon doesn't quite qualify as a one-trick pony, but he can use his best trick almost all the time thus far). And I can't remember an event where deception was anything more than an option you could do instead of persuasion. Granted, if it is an option to be used instead of all persuasion tests, it does become stronger if events starts demanding different sort of techniques.

Yes, I get to use charm a lot - and Theo gets to use deception a lot. I agree that certain aims require varying techniques, which is why (if things go the way I expect) you will sometime this story see Baelon in what I anticipate will be a rather difficult intrigue in which he will not be using Charm (though I am hopeful to have a +1D from a previous Charm).

Nathaniel Mason wrote:Hah.. its not that...

The Orokos Gods can smell over-confidence and crush it ruthlessly.

Nice to see they don't play favourites between players and narrators.

Yeah they can. Same with that mock-up drinking contest at the double wedding. I got to the very last and crit failed on TN18.

Dunstan Tullison wrote:Yeah, a lot of the benefits are much more useful in live play than in pbp. Here we go from scenario to scenario and there's time in between to heal up.

In my live game I had to drag a wound for a long time and failed a whole lot of tests where Hardy would be beneficial.

Reader, that sounds great. I made a post in my private forum. Thanks.

Hardy would be useful if you're throwing yourself at combat regularly, or if you have a high Endurance for the purpose of staying in a fight for much longer than you would otherwise, among other reasons I wouldn't know of.

Baelon wrote:Wait, there's a cap? I didn't know that - probably because I feel that 6d6 is powerful enough, and haven't sought to increase it - though I wouldn't mind adding a bonus die or two even if they don't become test dice.

Benefit Blood of Heroes allows you to spend experience on one ability of your choice beyond 7. This must mean that the upper limit on ability scores is 7 by default, and the max bonus dice you can ever have on any test being 7, for a 14d6k7. That's pretty dang powerful. Not that any of us will ever get there, but I suppose there is a mechanical limit in the system as opposed to one outright stated - your ability score in any test is capped at your permanent score(upper limit of 7) and your bonuses/conversions to test dice.

Unless the limit on how much you can get from bonuses is stated somewhere and I just missed it.

Baelon wrote:As for investigating, there are so many different ways to get information out of someone that it seems odd to restrict it to any one - though there should be consequences to our choices - if one uses Bargain, Intimidate, or Seduce the consequences are obvious. Taunt should have similar results to intimidate (you goad into action, but they dislike you for it afterwards). Charm and Convince are the hardest to come with consequences for... but it could be done.

I think consequences from Charm and Convince could manifest in observers on the side of your opponent, for successfully swaying them to a disposition or cause they are against. Bargain, Intimidation, and Seduction ply at basic human nature, and a success in one of those over your opponent would likely earn them the dissatisfaction of their peers, a little bit of self-loathing for their own moment of weakness, and hate/anger towards you for exploiting that weakness - if they live to tell about it. If they don't, their death would most certainly draw the ire of their peers towards you for causing it, if they have any inkling that you were involved.

As for whether or not they know you swayed them in private...where were you? Where was your target when they weren't looking? They're going to start drawing their own conclusions...

Baelon wrote:Yes, I get to use charm a lot - and Theo gets to use deception a lot. I agree that certain aims require varying techniques, which is why (if things go the way I expect) you will sometime this story see Baelon in what I anticipate will be a rather difficult intrigue in which he will not be using Charm (though I am hopeful to have a +1D from a previous Charm).

I need reasons to start using Endurance a lot, methinks.

Athelstan can give you a couple of reasons :;
): to use Endurance...

Psh, we'll see. It's in your hands now.

Who needs NPC led exposition when PCs do it for you?

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t=1803&
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I'm starting to see quite a few Day 3 posts popping up. I know people are eager to advance the story, but that is really not good for a number of reasons.

• It makes it harder for people to catch up when they get behind. Even when I just miss most of a busy day (like yesterday) it can be bit tricky to keep straight what things are happening when. It's not like the posts present themselves in chronological order.[/*1190u84w]
  
• It interferes with the remaining day 2 posts, creating an expectation that the remaining D2 material will not contradict the D3 material on pain of retcon.[/*1190u84w]
  
• It opens the door to all sorts of chronological maintenance issues - we run into this sometimes even between time slots, no need to extend the problem over game days, too.[/*1190u84w]

For that matter, we should really wrap up any Day 1 posts that don't absolutely need to be continued. One day at a time folks, one day at a time.

Baelon wrote:I'm starting to see quite a few Day 3 posts popping up. I know people are eager to advance the story, but that is really not good for a number of reasons.

• It makes it harder for people to catch up when they get behind. Even when I just miss most of a busy day (like yesterday) it can be bit tricky to keep straight what things are happening when. It's not like the posts present themselves in chronological order.[/*243vlhpg]
  
• It interferes with the remaining day 2 posts, creating an expectation that the remaining D2 material will not contradict the D3 material on pain of retcon.[/*243vlhpg]
  
• It opens the door to all sorts of chronological maintenance issues - we run into this sometimes even between time slots, no need to extend the problem over game days, too.[/*243vlhpg]

For that matter, we should really wrap up any Day 1 posts that don't absolutely need to be continued. One day at a time folks, one day at a time.

When does day 2 end?

By schedule it would end on Friday I think, but given we started a bit late, it is probably more on the weekend

Days start and end by narrator fiat. There is a tentative schedule of one day per week, but I'll be honest I'm having trouble keeping up and I know I'm not the only one. Rushing it even more makes it a choice between half-assing it (which I already feel I am doing quite a bit, my RP has been weak - when it's there at all) and dropping out for a while to focus on RL, which I really don't want to have to do.

Big easing in pace soon as I'm in HK/shanghai for work for a week, starting 14th of November. Therefore d4 will be have fights scenes and a big dramatic (almost) mandatory event to keep people occupied and last for two weeks of real time.

Athelstan wrote:Athelstan can give you a couple of reasons :;
): to use Endurance...

That sounded so much like you were hitting on her.

Reader wrote:Who needs NPC led exposition when PCs do it for you?

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t=1803&
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I am thoroughly enjoying Nathan's Blackbuckle posts.

Baelon wrote:I'm starting to see quite a few Day 3 posts popping up. I know people are eager to advance the story, but that is really not good for a number of reasons.

Since, as far as I am aware, I am the only person who has done this, I will presume this is directed at me.

The actions that have been already posted in my Blackbuckle thread are being done by Nathan alone, and are extraneous of other players (unless a PC wishes to take actions to prevent them like way-laying couriers). Further, Reader was fully aware of the actions Nathan was taking as I have discussed these actions (and others) with him at length. Much of the next 4 days of Nathan's activities have been mapped out.

Given this (and that we should be scheduled to start D3 tomorrow), I think it unlikely that anything will need to be retconned.

I do take your point Baelon, and have been careful about what I have posted in advance. (I don't think, for example, that any PC would be able to prevent Nathan from writing his letters or their delivery.) The entries were made as some of them can be lengthy and I have the time to do them right now which might not be the case next week.

I opened up a Day 2 post in a wrong area, and edited the title to day 3 because I'll be there on day 3.

Nathaniel Mason wrote:

Baelon wrote:I'm starting to see quite a few Day 3 posts popping up. I know people are eager to advance the story, but that is really not good for a number of reasons.

Since, as far as I am aware, I am the only person who has done this, I will presume this is directed at me.

It was certainly intended to include you, but I thought there were others as well (Yoren? Arlyn?) , but I'm on my phone right now and I can't look it up. It certainly wasn't intended to be personal.

I was certainly reacting most proximally to your post capping the well and burning the bodies at Blackbuckle. It's not the actions you took,or whether or not you had it planned or even if reader approved the actions. It's the timing. It won't affect me, as I will not be going there before that occurs(my personal concerns have more to do with keeping up), but I know others are. By posting your actions out of time you rob them of the opportunity to do the same. What if you went back and found the bodies already disposed of?

The only actions I have made in day 3 were writing letters back and forth to Nathan, I feel that those would not take up any timeslots (as the notes I was writing were just short messages to various NPC's and Nathan) and I have already brought up the IC concerns of distributing the evidence.

But I can not think of any other day 3 posts by other PC's besides me and Nathan. And as it's my day off I'm just trying to get as much posting done as possible.

Well, it's possible to write things out in the private forum for later posting.

At any rate, d2 started on monday? So kinda should not have it compressed to less than a week? I'm struggling with one week=one day tempo myself. And honestly, so does reader, it appears.

In that time slot, Nathan is preparing to burn the animal carcasses. A process that will take days if not longer before we get to the human bodies. Both PCs and NPCs should have ample opportunity to do what ever actions they may wish.

I will not post anything in advance in future, and if any PC honestly intended to cap the well in advance of Nathan, they can PM me and I will be happy to adjust the post.

Since you have been clear, let me be the same.

I suffer from Anhedonia. To save anyone from looking that up, roughly stated, it is a condition where people lose interest in activities, even in activities they enjoy or find pleasurable.

Story 1 was a tremendous struggle for me. I was fine when the game weeks were weekly, less so when it was ten days, and you guys nearly lost me when nothing was happening for two or three weeks at a time. While you may have the problem of things happening too rapidly, I have quite the reverse problem.

Nathaniel Mason wrote:In that time slot, Nathan is preparing to burn the animal carcasses. A process that will take days if not longer before we get to the human bodies. Both PCs and NPCs should have ample opportunity to do what ever actions they may wish.

I will not post anything in advance in future, and if any PC honestly intended to cap the well in advance of Nathan, they can PM me and I will be happy to adjust the post.

Since you have been clear, let me be the same.

I suffer from Anhedonia. To save anyone from looking that up, roughly stated, it is a condition where people lose interest in activities, even in activities they enjoy or find pleasurable.

Story 1 was a tremendous struggle for me. I was fine when the game weeks were weekly, less so when it was ten days, and you guys nearly lost me when nothing was happening for two or three weeks at a time. While you may have the problem of things happening too rapidly, I have quite the reverse problem.

As someone with ASD, I very much understand your difficulty with things not going fast enough for you.