Sorry all, hiatus until April (Edit: good news, may have new narrator instead!)

Nathaniel Mason wrote:Before we decide who will be what, we need to decide what will be what.

So far the contenders are:

1.  Narrator Team.
2.  Head Narrator and Assistants.
3.  Mechanics Narrator and Story Narrator.

Assuming there are no other viable styles, we should move to a poll.

That works for me.

I rather like a blending of 2 and 3, FWIW. A triumvirate with a lead Narrator, and a Mechanics and Story assistant peering over their shoulder to help out as needed. That gives us three GM-types to settle disputes, one with final say, and two that are chosen for their expertise in a specific thing.

Aerion Storm wrote:I rather like a blending of 2 and 3, FWIW.  A triumvirate with a lead Narrator, and a Mechanics and Story assistant peering over their shoulder to help out as needed.  That gives us three GM-types to settle disputes, one with final say, and two that are chosen for their expertise in a specific thing.  

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I am with aerion on this one

So.. is what your looking for:

A Head Narrator, in charge of Events and Overarching story.
A Mechanics Assistant, in charge of Combat, Warfare, Melees and Tourneys.
A Story Assistant, in charge of NPCs.

If so... that can be listed as option 4.

Yeesh that is what I was thinking

We would in that case require people to volunteer for that sort of job and actually have the time and energy to make a difference, so, do we?

The second part is narrator team chemistry, if we are set on person A being head honcho, but that person doesn't want to work with persons B and C, and those are the only volunteers, well, yeah.

Will an electoral college be involved when deciding Narrators/DMPCs?

As a new person I'd like to see the game continue. I find this type of PBP interesting.

Nathaniel Mason wrote:So.. is what your looking for:

A Head Narrator, in charge of Events and Overarching story.
A Mechanics Assistant, in charge of Combat, Warfare, Melees and Tourneys.
A Story Assistant, in charge of NPCs.

If so... that can be listed as option 4.

I think I like this, as it doesn't leave events to just one person.

I'd be willing to be Story Assistant, as long as it was a chiefly non-mechanical role and I could keep Corrine as a PC. That would mean having someone else drive some NPCs now and then (probably the Head Narrator or Mechanics Assistant). I strongly support the idea of Nathan as Head Narrator. My first thought for Mechanics Assistant was Theo, but as was rightly pointed out, it would have to be voluntary.

Will an electoral college be necessary ?. So far, things are on a voluntary basis (enthusiasm is important to help prevent burnout) and we'll have to see if we got more offer than demand. Also Theomore raising the point of personal relations is also something that should not be underestimated.

Jon Templeton wrote:Will an electoral college be involved when deciding Narrators/DMPCs?

As a new person I'd like to see the game continue. I find this type of PBP interesting.

I don't think we'll be having DMPCs as such, but I think Nathan is creating a poll for all players to vote on what structure we want first. Then, people can put themselves forward for the available roles.

Theomore Tullison wrote:We would in that case require people to volunteer for that sort of job and actually have the time and energy to make a difference, so, do we?

The second part is narrator team chemistry, if we are set on person A being head honcho, but that person doesn't want to work with persons B and C, and those are the only volunteers, well, yeah.

All the options require a degree of chemistry, or at least diplomacy. If we did choose that option and vote for a Head Narrator, and no-one volunteers to work with them, then the game probably ends. It's really that simple, but I think it unlikely. Anyone who did win the Head Narrator by vote would likely have supporters willing to volunteer or they would not have won the vote in the first place.

My biggest concerns with having 3+ people take on narrator roles are:

1) As Theo said, compatibility. To an extent that can be mitigated by having clearly defined roles. That minimizes the room for conflict. Especially if we are just implementing the story Reader has already set up. In terms of creating new story, yeah, that could be a problem - but hopefully by the time that comes up, Reader will be able to come back. If not... well, we can cross that bridge when we get there.

2) We don't want to thin the player-base TOO much. Lose one PC mover and shaker, no problem. Two will have a noticeable impact, but would probably be ok, especially if others step up (not in volume so much as in actively creating player-driven storylines). Lose three... well, if enough people step up it could work, but I suspect the opposite would happen - decreased engagement causing a death-spiral.

I should note regarding #2 that when I say the narrator's characters should become NCs, I mean out of the picture completely. If they are absolutely needed for a scene, they can make an appearance - but they would not participate in events, would not be present at battles, and above all would not be hatching any schemes, publicly or privately. I feel this is crucially important. It would be far too easy for a game like this to become screwed up because there are no checks on DMPCs. I've seen too many really good games fall apart because an otherwise amazing GM introduced a DMPC and it all fell apart. Especially when we've been running these characters for almost two years, and are very attached to them.

I'm more in the camp that we don't deal with absolutes, we can probably get by with one active narrator, we're not that many. It would be nice to have more of course.

Though the concern touched on by Baelon here is also one I see, typically, there's one player/PC in each house who's more actively engaged in the creation of content and to a degree drags the others along, it also happens that those are the names most readily mentioned in this thread, so it's a balance to strike.

So in my mind, the best option is to make Nathan narrator and let him figure out how best to make things work, having in the back of our minds that we may be having a co-narrator back in April, or not. But I would assume not.

Okay, wow. Didn't see it coming. I do hope the best for Reader, apart from any concerns about the game. In the end, games...even amazing ones...are just games.

That said, it IS an amazing game, and I'm really enjoying it not just on the level of collaborative fiction, but on the level of social interaction with some fun people, so I'd really like to keep it going.

I think any of the proposals mentioned so far could work.

My preference is to try to minimize the 'points of failure' though. It's tricky because in this case each person Narrating is both a point of failure (ie - each person has to do the thing or it can all fail), but is also a reinforcing point (ie - if someone doesn't do the thing, the ones left could potentially pull it through anyway).

I do think the 'person as point of failure' aspect is more likely though. This has nothing to do with any kind of personal judgement. It has EVERYTHING to do with the observation that we're busy people, with busy lives, and things happen that we may have to prioritize at any given moment.

I'm thinking the dual approach may work best. While the burden of storytelling and plot development fall on the 'story' Narrator, both are in the loop, and either can keep things moving if one falls by the wayside. Similarly the duties of the 'mechanics' Narrator can potentially be distributed if need be, without overly impacting the other Narrator's workload, at least until a replacement can be found. Two player characters removed from the game is narrative not too prohibitive to deal with.

A larger team not only has to deal with more complex task management, but is also more likely to compartmentalize the game...meaning that if one does have to stop, the remaining team will have to effectively reconstruct that person's work from their notes, while still keeping their own plates spinning. It's not inevitable that this would happen, and it could be consciously avoided, but complexity increases rapidly as number of individuals increases...and more complexity equals more points of failure.

So...TL;DR = Lets try to keep it as simple as we can, while still accomplishing the objective.

I've had a bit of a think about it, and I'm not sure that we're not trying to do things backwards.  Frankly, to my mind, any of the proposed solutions could work, filled with the right people.  But I do feel that perhaps it should be the (head) narrator's choice as to how much help they feel they need.  So perhaps, what we should do is anyone who wants the head narrator role post here, and say what they're looking for in terms of help (e.g. 'I'll do it, but could do with a mechanics Admin, and I'll need to create a thread in the OOC forum to ask for volunteers to control particular NPCs on an as-needed basis', for example), and then people volunteer to fill those roles via PM (or in the thread, but I do feel that perhaps PM is better), and then the narrator finally posts who they've chosen to help them in what roles.  At the end of this process, we have (probably/hopefully) 2-3 'solutions' (potentially all with different narrator configurations), and we can vote on which we as a group prefer.

Anyway, that's just my thoughts at the moment.

Hmm, you have a point there. However, I think the consensus seems to be that more than one narrator is ideal.

Would one Narrator responsible for keeping an eye for most storyline and most important stuff work? I think we could try take it as grown-ups and limit heavy lifting put on Narrator's shoulders. All not most important NPCs actions and interactions could be taken under players' command, so Narrator would only have to take care of main story, most important NPCs and possible outcome, if it's something major. We would only have to act like grown-ups and take general enjoyment above our own interests. In that case we all would participate in running the game and creating the world, which would be complex and much easier for Narrator to run.

As Nathan mentioned, every PC could have thread in his personal forum with questions and just to check is everything run right whenever in doubt- for example just to confirm possible outcome of someone's relation with NPC player is running.

I believe that Narrator has short notes or at least attributes for NPCs, and that could be guideline how to act specific NPCs. If there is no notes, player can see thing or two about character from it's attributes, benefits and drawbacks. If there is none, player can make it by himself using character creation rules +/- some experience we/Narrator can agree on. And at the end put it into our big NPC glossary, which could be managed by someone and kept updated, with all characters' interactions and notes we would put over there in next posts to keep it nice and tidy (from now on, I'm sure Narrator has stuff until this moment pretty much updated). So, if I'm running Ser Myles Blackwood, I run him as long as his decision and acts don't affect Dulvers. And I'm also responsible to post notes about him in glossary thread, so it can be updated without digging- short info like 'changed disposition towards someone to amiable' or 'promised someone to do that' after ended interaction doesn't seem tough to handle for person running character, nor for person responsible for updating general glossary.

Changing PCs into NPCs to let people focus on running game in our case seems a little too radical for me. Letting most active PCs disappear is not right solution, if You ask me... That's why I think giving Narrator relief and letting him focus on most important stuff only, by taking as much lift on our shoulders seems best idea.

And that's also place, where I would recommend Nathan to take over as Narrator. Not only he seems as capable person to run it of course, but also his working in shadow character seems better choice to be left in shadow than Corrine or Baelon, who worked pretty hard to be in spotlight. And I'm pretty sure Nathan can keep running his character as NPC (or even PC) without pushing his own agenda, pretty sure enough about it to let him be in charge alone.

To finish, we all would need to step into action as well as we do with running NPCs in combat and joust scenes and put general enjoyment on very first place. For our own and Narrator's sake.

Sorry for chaos, but had not much time and too much to write...

Yeah, but I do think having a 'head' narrator isn't a bad notion, as long as he or she isn't totally indispensable. An assistant narrator should have the necessary knowledge of the game to pick up in the event that the head narrator becomes unable or unwilling to continue his or her duties.

I think the ideal, be it head + assistant or 2 narrators that split workload, is that eventually they'd be collaborating to the point where they become more or less equally capable of managing things individually if need be. For a time at least.

As a complete aside. I think we should operate on the premise that we are continuing, until we know for sure we are not.

There are all kinds of melees/jousts/tournaments going on that do not need Reader's direct intervention, yes?

If there are any obstacles to this, perhaps they can be posted in the 'Questions for the Narrator thread' and we can come to some consensus.

Thanks to everyone for taking this in a positive direction. Sorry again for the sudden change in my gaming time allocation!

Having been a player in other similar games, I know how frustrating it can be when these end, particularly when they just drift to death without the narrator officially closing things (or better, passing things on!). A narrator owes all the players better than that.

I'll be around to help give new GMs admin privileges on the board, will share my Story 3 events and game spreadsheets etc. I'll also continue to help out with the game, perhaps on combats or even just back end administration.

Finally, I should add that I was asked to do my new project and didn't actively seek it out, but it was simply too good and too close to my heart to turn down. Thanks for all the kind words about this, apologies for the cloak and dagger element (confidentiality agreement) and I'll post about it when I can (if only so you can curse my other project).

There are many players here who would do a good job as narrator, or a team can be formed (with me in the background to keep some mystery if desired).

Nathaniel Mason wrote:As a complete aside.  I think we should operate on the premise that we are continuing, until we know for sure we are not.

There are all kinds of melees/jousts/tournaments going on that do not need Reader's direct intervention, yes?

If there are any obstacles to this, perhaps they can be posted in the 'Questions for the Narrator thread' and we can come to some consensus.

Particularly as it looks likely we'll be continuing, if the current enthusiasm holds!

As noted, I still have some availability (answering questions, helping on combats etc), it's just that I know I can't do this justice while my other project is in action (it is clear that the new project is time intensive).

As far as points of failure goes according to Gwyn's concern I think that as far as points of failure goes 3 is a pretty manageable number. When I volunteered in EMS there was a 1 to 4-7 rule, where one person would only be in charge of 4-7 people. We are getting up there in the number of active PC's, so I think there is a need to spread the workload more then what has been done

Reader wrote:Thanks to everyone for taking this in a positive direction. Sorry again  for the sudden change in my gaming time allocation!

Having been a player in other similar games, I know how frustrating it can be when these end, particularly when they just drift to death without the narrator officially closing things (or better, passing things on!). A narrator owes all the players better than that.

I'll be around to help give new GMs admin privileges on the board, will share my Story 3 events and game spreadsheets etc. I'll also continue to help out with the game, perhaps on combats or even just back end administration.

Finally, I should add that I was asked to do my new project and didn't actively seek it out, but it was simply too good and too close to my heart to turn down. Thanks for all the kind words about this, apologies for the cloak and dagger element (confidentiality agreement) and I'll post about it when I can (if only so you can curse my other project).

There are many players here who would do a good job as narrator, or a team can be formed (with me in the background to keep some mystery if desired).

as an aside to the aside, I think that Nathan has shown he can create compelling events with the Festival of masks, So if he does become head narrator and reader is still around, I am sure they can cook up some interesting events for the other PC's

For the record, I wrote the initial drafts of the events "An Opportunity in Myr" and "Those That Came Before", and a number of other events for Story 3 - mostly warfare scenes, but also diplomatic and other events for for the non-combat characters to aid in the war effort (and those two in particular were intended to let non-intriguers shine).

I'm not sure how much Reader changed them, as it was quite a while ago that I wrote them, some were incomplete (in some cases intentionally so I would not know everything), and I asked Reader to move the thread I had them in to a narrator-only forum so I couldn't give in and peek...

Baelon Drakeson wrote:For the record, I wrote the initial drafts of the events "An Opportunity in Myr" and "Those That Came Before", and a number of other events for Story 3 - mostly warfare scenes, but also diplomatic and other events for for the non-combat characters to aid in the war effort (and those two in particular were intended to let non-intriguers shine).

I'm not sure how much Reader changed them, as it was quite a while ago that I wrote them, some were incomplete (in some cases intentionally so I would not know everything), and I asked Reader to move the thread I had them in to a narrator-only forum so I couldn't give in and peek...

Confirming this, and they were very helpful indeed. I have a word document with these plus some of my own events for this story.