Mechanical discussion

Baelon wrote:[url=http:
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php?p=77667#p77667:1dlh0hdk]Subject: [Day 8 ME-EN] The Naked Hare - Dulver's Celebration[/url:1dlh0hdk]

Yoren longshore wrote:We will also have siege equipment on board, and what is useful in felling stone walls is equally usefull in crushing ships."

This brings up something I've been wondering.

Warships can carry another unit - but can that unit act while on board? If so, that opens up all sorts of possibilities.
Corollary question - can warships carry siege and engineers, or would they need to be on separate ships (in some ways siege count as units in other ways they do not, so it is not clear).
Secondary corollary - if warships can carry both, can the engineers fire the siege? Or would the warship unit need to be dual-trained as engineers?

Initial ruling.

- Separate ships needed, so to shoot siege engines you'd need dual trained ships.

Units can act while on board for boarding/archery.

Reader wrote:Converting wealth to good dragons: status (stewardship) TN 9 check. 10GD per dos. Doing this requires the Lord's permission and frequent use may see influence hits/in game events due to your high spending. Use in moderation is fine - it@/ good to be Lord!

How does this work with exchanging gold dragons for wealth? Do you still need 200 dragons then? Or is it another roll needed?

Reader wrote:Converting wealth to good dragons: status (stewardship) TN 9 check. 10GD per dos. Doing this requires the Lord's permission and frequent use may see influence hits/in game events due to your high spending. Use in moderation is fine - it@/ good to be Lord!

Whew, that's a significant devaluation of Wealth - from 200gd to at most 40.
On the other hand, I guess the ease of getting Wealth makes getting game disrupting stuff too easy?
Superior weapons/armor aren't such an advantage as to be game breaking - so I'm guessing someone wanted to invest house funds into one or more of:
Extraordinary gear
Quantities of rare poisons (and the catspaws a and bribes to make use of them?)

The new cohort rule was the only time I have balked at any thing on here, but this has caused another. 40GD will not even get a set of superior plate. I think a better restriction would be only one exchange a season. Keep the status roll but have max DoS get full 200GD. Having the exchange go through the Head of House also seems reasonable. It may keep down on the wild and extravagant spending.

Converting GD to wealth still runs as in the books. 200Gd invested = 1 wealth.

Wealth to GD is lower return as not all wealth is liquid.

Appreciate concerns being expressed constructively and open to debate (had alreadyy done some discussions in house forums) - how about 20GD per DoS? Would that help alleviate worries?

Lords value their Valyrian swords higher than their daughters....so it would be strangler and tears of lys.

The point of contention I'd make is the comparison to the wealthy benefit, that sort of character can potentially crank out a similar amount of coin for free than a lord that liquidates his assets. Also it's a bit of rolling up the ladder (because Tullisons liquidated a point of wealth before chapter 1 so we could start out with nice gear).

It sort of brings out the suspicion that someone decided to abuse that rule, and there's a hundred abusable things in this system, so it kinda goes like needing to trust people not to do it most times, and stop them when they do. This honestly look like a stop-gap houserule that punishes everyone else in the process.

Personally, I'd do something like this:

House Action: Raise coin:
Status (Stewardship) TN 9: Gain GD per DoS equal to Wealth/10 (round down) or sacrifice 1 Wealth, gain GD equal to 4x Wealth score.

House Action: Invest coin:
Invest 20 coin per wealth score, gain +1 wealth.

Nobody was trying to abuse the system.

More an attempt on my part to avoid easy transfers (and making weath, GD and glory too similar), prevent future abuse and keep wealthy useful.

Generally a sane bunch here.

Well, if you go with my suggestion, you solve most of those concerns, as:

-It requires 5 times as much GD to raise wealth than you get out of liquidating.
-A point of glory still raises wealth (or whatever) by 1.

It also makes it so that wealth isn't really transferable at all. Seeing that a house with wealth 50 gets out of liquidating one point is what a house with wealth 10 needs to raise their wealth by one. Unless you allow houses to transfer resources between each other with a snap of the fingers, something RAW does not support.

Reducing what you can do with wealth as relates to GD to a choice between more wealth holdings or nicer gear. Also with the side-effect of richer houses fielding bigger purses for tourney prizes. And glory becomes much more powerful in comparison to GD.

There's still the matter of wealthy, of course, but this allows a character to not have to rely upon the goodwill of his liege for his spending needs.

I like the new rules, makes resources more scarce.
Talking of all potential ways people can abuse the system is a bit redundant, I would say. IF someone wishes to be the bill gates of this setting, just get trade and you can own the seven kingdoms in a month

I can get behind Theo's idea.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but superior plate is only 6000 silver, which equates to about 28.57 gold. 40 gold should be more than enough. Wealthy still holds the advantage because you get this event every month for the rest of your PCs life without the loss in house wealth and the other potential consequences that come with converting wealth to gold plus you don’t have to ask for your lord’s permission. The only advantage with converting is you can in theory do it whenever you need the quick gold. (Baring your lord’s permission and having the wealth needed.)

Theomore Tullison wrote:Unless you allow houses to transfer resources between each other with a snap of the fingers, something RAW does not support.

RAW is a bit silent on the issue - could go either way. Precedent has been set in this game that it can be, however - we've seen "
instant"
transfers of Wealth, Influence, and I think maybe Population.

Now, I don't mind altering that precedent, but if anything should be easily transferable it's Wealth. Personally, I always thought of Wealth not invested in holdings is more or less your treasury - relatively liquid, but with no returns. I suppose one's assets might include other no-return investments, though - works of art, well stocked wine cellar, books, etc - relatively liquid assets, but with an unpredictable sale value.

Making the conversion a house action does put a significant opportunity cost to it - that would be a significant limiting factor right there. I also like the notion of there being a potential reputation cost - perhaps a second test, TN 12 or lose a point of influence?

Don't forget, we all have other ways of making money. Routine expenditures should be easy enough, and superior-level items should be more difficult to attain, and extraordinary (whether that be VS weapons or other forms) should probably be the domain of story events (and long-term personal objectives). Baelon was able to buy superior plate with personal funds after story 1 only because of extraordinary incomes - namely, winning the melee and doing decently in the joust.

Yoren longshore wrote:I like the new rules, makes resources more scarce.
Talking of all potential ways people can abuse the system is a bit redundant, I would say. IF someone wishes to be the bill gates of this setting, just get trade and you can own the seven kingdoms in a month

Heh, I talked with Reader about that once, very early on. When I was considering playing Daveth, I was considering developing him as a Trade baron, eventually bucking for a position as Master of Coin.... in short, it is ridiculously open to abuse when house-level resources are involved. Even just combining Wealthy and Trade is bonkers - start with nothing, be as richer than most lords in a matter of months. Trade works fine... in a game style with little or no downtime.

Davain Bartheld wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but superior plate is only 6000 silver, which equates to about 28.57 gold. 40 gold should be more than enough.

The prices of superior goods was increased;
it should be in the House Rules thread.

Superior Full Plate would be 15000SS which is roughly 72 GD, (5x the price of the base items or +1000ss, whichever is higher), half that with armorsmith.

Which brings to question, is there any house around that Theo might count among his friends with an armorsmith? :mrgreen:

Extraordinary stuff doesn't have a pricetag AFAIK, must be gained through play or something.

Adjusted the conversion to 20GD per DoS and will trial the current system. Open to changes if people find this damages their enjoyment of the game - feel free to discuss the issue here or to contact me via PM.

I think 20 GD per DoS is much too stingy. And the RAW solution is better IMO, nor does it truly need fixing to begin with.

On another matter, after reading the Frey/Roxton fun, there is an issue that maybe should be brought up: Injuries during jousting.

I'm partial to not resolve the damage from a tilt before after animal handling is tested, and injuries/wounds are then picked up to reduce damage (if desired) after it's determined whether extra damage is taken from falling off the horse. Because:

1. It allows us to post both Fighting and Stay in saddle in the same post to speed things up.
2. We can consider the damage taken from falling off as part of the damage taken from the attack itself for the purpose of determining whether or not one should bother with taking injuries in the first place.

Well, in the book under donating coin (don't have access to page numbers for reference) it says that you can donate 200 GD to form 1 wealth up to the house resource score of 60? Ish? Then you have to donate 1000 gd or something. I think I posted the page number some where else, but that in itself is a limiting factor from transferring wealth Willy nilly

Theomore Tullison wrote:On another matter, after reading the Frey/Roxton fun, there is an issue that maybe should be brought up: Injuries during jousting.

I'm partial to not resolve the damage from a tilt before after animal handling is tested, and injuries/wounds are then picked up to reduce damage (if desired) after it's determined whether extra damage is taken from falling off the horse. Because:

1. It allows us to post both Fighting and Stay in saddle in the same post to speed things up.
2. We can consider the damage taken from falling off as part of the damage taken from the attack itself for the purpose of determining whether or not one should bother with taking injuries in the first place.

The issue I have with that is that it means more passes per challenge. The injuries can often play a role in the unhorsing, so to apply them after makes for longer jousts - and they can take long enough as it is.

Septon Arlyn wrote:Well, in the book under donating coin (don't have access to page numbers for reference) it says that you can donate 200 GD to form 1 wealth up to the house resource score of 60? Ish? Then you have to donate 1000 gd or something. I think I posted the page number some where else, but that in itself is a limiting factor from transferring wealth Willy nilly

The concern is more the other way around - converting wealth to coin. Besides, I suspect most houses have yet to hit the 60 wealth mark;
remember that the Dulvers started with more than most.

In the House Chapter it say 200GD=+1 Wealth, in the narrator chapter, it says this goes up to 40 Wealth, after this it's 1000GD=+1 Wealth. I do seem to recall that GR has said the latter being the correct bit.

I cannot find where it says you can convert wealth to coin, but I am pretty sure this rule is in there somewhere.

Maybe instead of only being status stewardship you could also use persuade (bargin)? It would make sense if your selling off your minor items (silverware, tapestries, curtains, clothing, horses, or whatever) in order to gain the cash. How I think I might do it is take 200 GD, figure out what the percentage of the price you would knock off (maybe 50 or 75, depending on how generous you were feeling) then use the bargin table to determine how much extra you get.

Example, I convince Lord Dulver to trade in 1 wealth so that Ser Walton and Ser Tymon can buy some fancy new armor. We gain back100 gd, Lord Dulver, being great trader he is, gets 2 dos, assuming he has friends and is friendly with the people he is trading with that means he gets 5 X cunning X 2 dos, so, assuming cunning 3 that's 30% increase, or, 30 gd, giving us a total of 130 gd to spend on equipment ect

Theomore Tullison wrote:In the House Chapter it say 200GD=+1 Wealth, in the narrator chapter, it says this goes up to 40 Wealth, after this it's 1000GD=+1 Wealth. I do seem to recall that GR has said the latter being the correct bit.

I cannot find where it says you can convert wealth to coin, but I am pretty sure this rule is in there somewhere.

House Actions I think were if you donate 200gd = 1 Wealth.

Well, swapping Stewardship with Bargain in the house action test can make sense, though I wouldn't change the underlying mechanic, like throwing in cunning ranks and what-not.

Best keep it simple, one test, gain X coin per DoS. I'd argue that a house with higher wealth score should get more coin per DoS than a house with lower wealth score though.

So I found out what's up with the becomes 1000 GD needed to raise wealth over 40....That is errata to the first book, which they apparently forgot should be applied to chapter 6 as well.

20 isn't too stingy in my opinion. Superior plate is the most expensive armor in the game. Only the richest knights and houses would have access to this. With an armor smith it would take 10,000 silver or 47.62 gold and 15,000 silver or 72 gold without it. These sums put the ability to obtain this armor in the realm of possibility, it just means your house has to do really well converting it's non liquid assets into cash.

Davain Bartheld wrote:20 isn't too stingy in my opinion. Superior plate is the most expensive armor in the game. Only the richest knights and houses would have access to this. With an armor smith it would take 10,000 silver or 47.62 gold and 15,000 silver or 72 gold without it. These sums put the ability to obtain this armor in the realm of possibility, it just means your house has to do really well converting it's non liquid assets into cash.

Hooray! Happy to keep the dialogue on this one under review, and thanks for digging up the errata Theo.