A death at the Iron Mines - a note on IC/OOC reactions

Some guidance on OOC reactions.

Corrine and gravity have killed a fellow royal investigator in a confrontation instigated by Lord Baelon Drakeson - a serious move.

- Pulling this stunt on a high status character or even a different status 3 character would likely have severe consequences.

However:
- Athelstan is a bastard.
- Athelstan has been judged guilty of kinslaying [for a modern analogue of how the people of Westeros feel about this, think of how we feel about child molesters] - compounded with begin "
born of lies and lust"
people expect and believe the worst of him [and are justified to do so in this case]
- House Longshore brought only ten military men with them.
- House Drakeson/Coldbrook has good evidence that they may choose to present, some other houses have this evidence too I think.
- Several PCs present heard Athelstan describe his interference with the investigation scene at his death.

- Effectively, in the name of preserving verisimilitude, most NPCs (even greens) will regard this as a justified homicide. Ser Jon Roxtox, a bold, skilled knight many of you are familiar and friendly with is a committed Green and traditionalist, but stills sees this as justified.
- Some green extremists or those working for political advantage will try to spin it against Baelon, House Coldbrook or even House Marsten. You're welcome to do so, but be aware of who that aligns you with (the scheming, political minority even among the Greens).

One interesting justified reaction that will play in to the growing tensions:
- You're all totally justified in taking guards with you to EVERY investigation, although this may aggravate the local population forward.

Reader wrote:Baelon has killed a fellow royal investigator

Baelon wrote:

Reader wrote:Baelon has killed a fellow royal investigator

Corrected, 1000 apologies.

Added your formal title as an apology. :;
):

Can't go about guiding players while I'm libelling the (alleged) son of Prince Daemon Targaryen himself!

Corrine &
Gravity. The new Dunk &
Egg.

well technically, given the timeline, wouldn't it be the original Dunk &
Egg?

Samurel Manderly wrote:well technically, given the timeline, wouldn't it be the original Dunk &
Egg?

Smart-arse spymasters with their fancy "
chronology"
. :;
):

Get thee to the citadel.

Nah, While Samurel isn't as stout as his fellow northerners, he still believes learning is best done "
in the field"
as it were

Reader wrote:

Samurel Manderly wrote:well technically, given the timeline, wouldn't it be the original Dunk &
Egg?

Smart-arse spymasters with their fancy "
chronology"
. :;
):

Get thee to the citadel.

Sam, shush. :;
):

Reader, that was funny.

Theomore's player has a few things to add, because Westeros is not nearly so simple that the consequences and reactions will be as simple as all that.

1. Baelon unilaterally acted to push a prominent member of House Longshore into a corner, leading to his death.
2. Baelon threatened to kill him if he did not confess to his crimes, whatever they might be.

No matter how despicable Athelstan was, the following applies:
1. House Longshore has been gravely insulted and provoked, wars have been started over less.
2. Corollary to the above, Ferris may not have liked Athelstan much, but he will appear weak if the Longshores does not retaliate.
3. There is considerable ambiguity concerning whether or not Baelon had the authority to do as he did. Arrest? Sure. Act as judge, jury and executioner? No.
4. Baelon's act has set a dangerous precedence, can any house who feels justified push around other investigators on a whim?

This is not something that can be swept under a rug, it's a gamechanger.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Theomore's player has a few things to add, because Westeros is not nearly so simple that the consequences and reactions will be as simple as all that.

1. Baelon unilaterally acted to push a prominent member of House Longshore into a corner, leading to his death.
2. Baelon threatened to kill him if he did not confess to his crimes, whatever they might be.

No matter how despicable Athelstan was, the following applies:
1. House Longshore has been gravely insulted and provoked, wars have been started over less.
2. Corollary to the above, Ferris may not have liked Athelstan much, but he will appear weak if the Longshores does not retaliate.
3. There is considerable ambiguity concerning whether or not Baelon had the authority to do as he did. Arrest? Sure. Act as judge, jury and executioner? No.
4. Baelon's act has set a dangerous precedence, can any house who feels justified push around other investigators on a whim?

Some points worth considering, and not to spoil what happens next. I particularly like How Lord Longshore solves any perception of weakness - you'll see it soon!

1. House Longshore has been gravely insulted and provoked, wars have been started over less. - This man killed Lord Longshore's son dishonourably and he feared for his remaining son and daughter. He will not mourn Athelstan. Some action will be taken for appearance's sake.
2. Corollary to the above, Ferris may not have liked Athelstan much, but he will appear weak if the Longshores does not retaliate. - The Mallisters are the most likely to invade and have sworn not to. Athelstan's parting gift. This gives House Longshore time to rebuild its strength. Indeed, Lord Longshore already has a plan on how to do so, as you'll see with Athelstan's next character. Lord Longshore has his own plans for how to retaliate, if he sees the need. Appearing weak (but not so weak as to be invaded, and the Mallisters are too honourable to attack while they've sworn not to) is not always a bad thing for House Longshore, given its history. Lord Drakeson is not without enemies.
3. There is considerable ambiguity concerning whether or not Baelon had the authority to do as he did. Arrest? Sure. Act as judge, jury and executioner? No. Baelon didn't - he tried to arrest Athelstan and the ironborn resisted arrest.
4. Baelon's act has set a dangerous precedence, can any house who feels justified push around other investigators on a whim? That's the interesting one and noted directly in my opening post - will everyone go around with an armed guard now?

Reader wrote:Corrected, 1000 apologies.

Forgiven, I just didn't want there to be any misunderstandings.
I figured you had that written before the final outcome was decided.

I was teaching my students about moral relativism today, so I found your explication of emotional reactions to kinslaying to be quite relevant.
I think my examples of slavery, genocide, and revenge killings were not emotionally charged enough to get some of my students to get the point home about why we might not want to accept it.

Theomore Tullison wrote:2. Baelon threatened to kill him if he did not confess to his crimes, whatever they might be.

Correction: Baelon threatened to kill him if he did not truthfully answer questions - that he had to confess his crimes to meet those criteria was only contingent on there being any crimes to confess.

Round 1

Baelon wrote:If your hand so much as twitches in the direction of your axe, you will be killed. If you move, you will be killed. If you fail to answer the questions put to you by any royal investigator, you will be killed. If you lie, you will be killed.

Round 2

Baelon wrote:Now... tell us everything you know and everything you have done, or I will have my archers fire

After Quit

Baelon wrote:Bloodriders, shoot his horse, then aim at his legs. If he still won't cooperate, maybe crippling him will make him more accommodating.

There's the thing. Baelon threatening to kill him if he did not answer questions and/or lied is where he oversteps his authority, because making good on that threat makes him a murderer. And that is my point, I have difficulty seeing an IC interpretation of the scene that makes it as simple as Athelstan resisting arrest.

I'd say it wasn't done on a whim, but I recognize that's not necessarily how folks will take it.

Theomore Tullison wrote:There's the thing. Baelon threatening to kill him if he did not answer questions and/or lied is where he oversteps his authority, because making good on that threat makes him a murderer. And that is my point, I have difficulty seeing an IC interpretation of the scene that makes it as simple as Athelstan resisting arrest.

If Baelon had followed through, it might have been murder, and it might have been a justified killing. That is something that would have been debated - if it had happened.
I certainly would not call the events of that scene 'simple' at all.

Further, there are people who were there and will interpret and spin events in various ways.
Then there are people who were not there, who will have to rely on the reports of others as a basis to determined what happened.

One player has rightly raised a concern that my opening post means there will be no consequences or ripples from this - not so! As noted in the opening post, players are welcome (encouraged even!) to spin this to their own advantage. Some NPCs certainly will.

I just wanted you all to know roughly how NPCs will react so there are no unpleasant surprises.

Yoren has most of the times brough along a few men, from now on the full retinue of nine warriors will follow him. Maybe not just for defence?

Raynald couldn't care less about a dead ironborn, but he will certainly take advantage of the precedence that is open now for him to never be without his Whoresons. He fought for Baelon's father in the Stepstones, so he may be sympathetic towards him. He cares not about the law too, in the sense that he do not use it as a basis to define right and wrong (well, at least when it is not convenient), thanks to his chaotic nature.

I doubt any of , Coldbrooks will spin the story other than to their benefit, and well we will see what Corrine does, so really the Dulver dont know really so we will see. Actual PCs being there they are all onboard with about the same story to say.

Athelstan wrote:I doubt any of , Coldbrooks will spin the story other than to their benefit, and well we will see what Corrine does, so really the Dulver dont know really so we will see. Actual PCs being there they are all onboard with about the same story to say.

We will indeed see. I am not certain that the Coldbrooks will do much spinning though.

But while I kinda have taken your side on this matter OOC, I must say that I find this post on the side of the needlessly provocative.

Not meant as provocative, but also to make notice that House Coldbrook memebers won't spin the story externally, internally their character will react some way unknown, and Corrine will react her own way to the incident. It's just to say spinning the story can happen more internally among the Coldbrooks than the unified front they will put together which is normal and expected.

The Dulvers could spin it or not, but they are late to the scene really and nothing much but the words of the PC's to go on for now.

Sorry if it sounds provocative it was not the intention.

But I do love to see a good spin

Like a bunch of plates :;
):

Reader wrote:Some guidance on OOC reactions.
- Effectively, in the name of preserving verisimilitude, most NPCs (even greens) will regard this as a justified homicide. Ser Jon Roxtox, a bold, skilled knight many of you are familiar and friendly with is a committed Green and traditionalist, but stills sees this as justified.
- Some green extremists or those working for political advantage will try to spin it against Baelon, House Coldbrook or even House Marsten. You're welcome to do so, but be aware of who that aligns you with (the scheming, political minority even among the Greens).

One interesting justified reaction that will play in to the growing tensions:
- You're all totally justified in taking guards with you to EVERY investigation, although this may aggravate the local population forward.

Just a few comments on this. I personally don't think you have to be a green extremist to have some concerns or misgivings around how this went down, as been said its a complex scene that can be viewed many different ways depending on who's looking at it and from where. I would think the green default view would me something more along the lines of "
Well it does seem like it was a bit of a mess and could have been handled better but the ironborn's death was justified."
To be honest I think even some black houses would feel that way.

I suspect the general green schemer sentiment is "
How can we use this to hurt Lord Baelon?"
, though schemers, by nature, does not advertise.

For the record,

I never agreed to Corrine shooting Athelstan regardless of her desire OOC, for IC reasons. It was a last second change by reader I assume and I agreed to other changes for the sake of moving this story.