Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishment.

Ok, so this is an OOC summary of proposed punishment. OOC and IC is a bit blurred, but we assume that most things will be shared, and therefore we might work of parts of OOC knowledge.
It's a thread where we can help move the IC stuff forward by creating a list over the different things people should be sentenced for.
If people decide to use this thread I will update this post as the discussion moves along and as more info is unearthed.

I've been quite busy and haven't had the time to properly look at other peoples threads so here is a short list of those I'm aware of:
My qoutes have often been slightly edited, but i try to gauge the meaning of the post, if I fail to do so, please notify me.


[size=150:1cb27ct6]Characters to be looked at:

Hugh: Not in the question of this investigation

Maester Arran:


Daveth's assembly thread wrote:Death Penalty (Daveth)
For: Coldbrook, Bartheld, Dulver
Against: Longshore
Undecided: Marsten

Send to the wall (Yoren)
For: Longshore
Against: Coldbrook, Bartheld, Dulver
Undecided: Marsten

Death by Glass Candle Tears (if Death Penalty passes) (Daveth)
For: Coldbrook, Bartheld
Against: Dulver (open to being convinced otherwise), Tullison
Undecided: Marsten

Citadel pays reparations to help Blackbuckle (Arlyn)
For: Dulver
Against: Marsten, Bartheld, Coldbrook

Citadel replaces the Blackwood's maester free of charge (Arlyn)
For: Dulver, Coldbrook
Against: Bartheld

Citadel is asked to strip Arran of his chain (Nathan)
For: Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver
Against: Tullison

Arran is shown his handiwork at Blackbuckle
For: Bartheld, Coldbrook, Marsten


Current conclusions: Death and he has been shown his handiwork. Maester Arran - will be stripped of his chains. Citadel replies by Raven post story 2. (last bit from Reader)
To be discussed: Does the citadel pay for his actions, does the Citadel replace him themselves and does he get killed by glass candle tears (his own poison).


Benjicot Blackwood: Have been made to confess privately for one of his actions.
"
Benjicot has done only one thing wrong"
- Jorah
"
Nobody is above reproach here, this is a full run through, where all should bring things up."
- Yoren




Benedict on how to deal with his ambush under a flag of truce wrote:I guess this is what we are looking for:
Where- A small tour of some of the damage caused
When- within next two days (D6/d7), sooner the better
Who- Benjicot, Myles, Haigh, Wyll, Kings representative(Ironrod, Eroic), PC rep Blackwood(?), PC rep Bracken (Davain Bartheld/Nathaniel Mason), scribe: Ereth Redwayn.
Why- apology over misactions under flag of truce





Tyron Blackwood:
"
should be put on a leash"
- Jorah


Haigh Bracken:
Crimes: Letting his soldiers run rampant.
Very split again, many considered to just let the riots wash away him and his family.
"


Jorah wrote:I suspect Lord Bracken will be doing a lot of grovelling for that and have chunks of his house executed or sent to the wall.

"
-Jorah


Theomore wrote:the Brackens carried out a second attack in a deliberate attempt to shift blame should carry some serious repercussions, given the opinion regarding the assassination, I'm even more inclined to send Haig up to freeze his balls off. Mayhaps some wrist-slapping by wrangling responsibility of protecting the place to the Blackwoods, depending on the legal status of the area which is unclear to me OOC. The Brackens are clearly unsuitable to protect it at any rate. If it is already Blackwood territory, then this might call to reparations. The treaty should not mention Dornish Caravans as that might risk upsetting the delicate relations between the crown and Dorne.


Nathan wrote:Very very OOC: Personally, Nathan would be happy to send Lord Haig Bracken to freeze his balls off at the Wall, but the Greens would be rabidly against losing a warrior and commander of his caliber with the threat of war looming in the coming years. Nathan has been working to try and neuter the man in another way, by getting him appointed to the Kingsguard. That way, Lordship passes to his son, the future damage he can do is severely curtailed, and he still is available and has value to the Greens should war break out.-Nathan


Gorman Tully:

Crimes: letting all of this happen


Several bandits/impoverished peasants: indict them for their actions or give them new farms where they can work? Send them away or reposition them close?

[size=150:1cb27ct6]The different scenes:
These will all be divided into what is facts/what is known and peoples opinions. Use IC opinions and if you wish add OOC as an afterthought. This is to make an IC message! Both facts and opinions will have peoples name at the end of their statements. In the end will be a consideration of punishment.
Salted fields

Facts:

Tyron Blackwood responsible-Theomore
Salted fields - essentially solved with evidence and confession- Ben

Opinions:

Tryon Blackwood- needs a black cloak to match his heart- Ben
If you want a Peace treaty, sending Ser Tyron to the Wall is not an option. Have House Blackwood pay compensation to House Bracken for the damage.-Nathan
Echoing what Ben said: send him to the Wall.- Loreia
Property damage should warrant reparations, see note on Tyron, however.-Theomore (see the bottom of this post for the added info).

Raventree
Facts:

Ser Rupert responsible, but investigation into co-conspirators pending- Theomore
essentially solved awaiting trap- Ben

Opinions:

Suspect -Death (may come down to trial by combat)- Ben
Unless the involvement of Ser Steffan comes to light, we have the head of Ser Ruffas. Unless it can be proved this was done with the blessing of Lord Bracken, I am not sure how much House Bracken can be held responsible.-Nathan
Raventree, needs further investigation, the map and training grounds are damning..and this sort of thing is centuries worth of hate-fuel. It's the Brackens and Blackwoods that perpetuate the feud, it's their stories that gets repeated over and over, everything else that happened will be forgotten in a few generations, this one? No. I'd be inclined to send Haig to the wall for not actively rooting out whoever was responsible for that himself. Justified in part due to robbing Raventree of it's leadership in such a fashion can only be truly answered with doing the same to Stone Hedge. Lord Haig can probably be held accountable for about half of the king's peace being broken, the one that we could have held accountable for the other half is dead. -Theomore

Septry
Facts:

Olyvar Lucas did it.-Theomore
Septry- solved with confession Olivier Lucas (did it) see Nathan and Corrine (for more info)- Ben

Opinions:

The bandits have been dealt with, and Ser Olyvar Lucas is being punished, his reputation destroyed, and is being ransomed back to House Lucas to pay for the rebuilding of the Sept and to pay compensation to House Daleford. I don't see that there is much more to do with that situation.- Nathan
if House Lucas ransoms him, earmark that to go to the restoration of the septry, and it should not pass through Bracken hands.- Theomore

False flag
Facts:

Lord Benji responsible.-Theomore
essentially solved in need of resolution- Ben

Opinions:

Lord Benjicott - apology and reparations- Ben
I am deeply unconvinced that a six year old was responsible. Even if he gave a direct order to attack, who commanded the forces to engage the Brackens. Where was the adult in all this, or did the men simply follow the order of a child because they wanted an excuse. Still, if an apology from 'Lord Blackwood' will set the matter to rest, that's fine. It's not 'justice' to use a child as a scapegoat, but it is probably good politics.-Nathan
Military operation from a six year old? An apology should suffice.-Theomore

Blackbuckle
Facts:

Maester Arran responsible-Theomore
Blackbuckle - solved with confession

Opinions:

The maester pays the prize, recognize Ser Myles promise to contribute to the restoration in a way that will make him look bad if he goes back on those words.-Theomore
Maester Arran - death- Ben
Publicly execute Maester Arran. Ser Myles Blackwood has already agreed to assist with the restoration of the town.-Nathan
Just kill him. Give him to Lord Haig to hack off his head himself for some vengeance as a consolation. Parading him about the village of Blackbuckle is a waste of time.-Loreia

Ironmines
Facts:

Brackens did the damage, but both were fighting.-Theomore
I am unsure - Ben

Opinions:

Brackens (Pays) reparations- Ben
Brackens pay reparations to House Blackwood and to House Targaryen.-Loreia
No real idea where we are with that. The situation is such a huge mess.-Nathan
it may be prudent to rule that Salted Fields and mine repair reparations cancels each other out, depending on damage dealt . Also, See note on Tyron. (At the bottom of this post)- Theomore

Salted and Iron Mines is not comparable I think, it will take far longer to fix the damage of the fields than the mines and those still don't recover 100% for years. While the mines can be fixed within a year or less with the aid of House Tullison and Redwain, and the reparations of House Bracken, so I think it's a bigger pay for the Brackens for the fields than the mines.

Borderlands
Facts:

Brackens did the damage, but both were fighting. -Theomore
iffy as to fault- Ben
There was 5 points of damage, and they want 5 more points in compensation. I am currently inclined to have House Bracken pay 7 points for doing the damage, and House Blackwood 3 points for instigating the situation.-Nathan
Brackens caused the damage, so a larger share of the repairs should be levied upon them- Theomore

Opinions:

If reparations are called for then both houses should pay- Ben
Blackwood lured Bracken troops over the border, where they set up long-term camp to stage ambushes. A few of the men who served under the commanding officer will go to the Wall. No property damage, so no reparations, but they should pay recompense to House Darry for disturbing peace on Darry land.-Loreia
Blackwoods using Darry's lands to stage attacks thus being the initiators of the problem, and Bracken troops for pursuing to far and causing damage. Yet I see the Blackwoods as baring more responsibility than the Bracken. It's like a friend of yours in your backyard decides to throw rocks at a bee's nest and you getting stung by them and blaming the bee's for reacting to an attack on their nest. I would also pursue after getting attack once or twice into Darry's lands if the attack is coming from there violating the engagement area, which is something the Blackwood's have done to gain a advantage in their war against the Bracken's.-Ereth

Pennytree (first attack)
Facts:

The first Pennytree attack was committed by Bracken troops, acting to line their own pockets, not as a deliberate act on the part of House Bracken.- Baelon
Bracken soldiers did it- Theomore
Pennytree - original attack essentially solved with confessions and evidence- Ben

Opinions:

If we hold Haig accountable for his troops - reparations(but to who? Dornish?)-Baelon
Hold the dornish out of the treaty- Theomore
If men turn bandit, you hunt them down and hang them (or send them to the wall). Lord Bracken has a lot of plausible deniability in this situation, however we can hold him to the cost of this by forcing him to invest in Law points. My guess is that he would rather be investing in wealth or power after we leave.-Nathan
Soldiers need to fear an example. Loreia would like a few guilty Bracken soldiers to A)go to the Wall, or B)lose fingers or a hand for robbing merchants. A or B, whichever is custom. She favors the fingers/hands.-Loreia

Pennytree (second attack)
Facts:
(still unknown by all PCs that Theomore is behind this)

The second attack was by Black lesser knights, covering up for the Bracken (Green) troops...- Baelon
The second attack was insufficient though, so whomever *cough*Theo*cough* was behind it failed. -Baelon
The cover-up of the second attack is ongoing, so it may or may not succeed...- Baelon
Matter up for debate.- Theomore
new attack unsure-Ben

Opinions:

-Not a Blackwood/Bracken problem-Ben
-that the Brackens carried out a second attack in a deliberate attempt to shift blame should carry some serious repercussions, given the opinion regarding the assassination, I'm even more inclined to send Haig up to freeze his balls off. Mayhaps some wrist-slapping by wrangling responsibility of protecting the place to the Blackwoods, depending on the legal status of the area which is unclear to me OOC. The Brackens are clearly unsuitable to protect it at any rate. If it is already Blackwood territory, then this might call to reparations. The treaty should not mention Dornish Caravans as that might risk upsetting the delicate relations between the crown and Dorne.- Theomore
f House Blackwood cannot be blamed by his Maester, Pennytree should be seen the same way. a unit of men turned rogue should face the execution block or the wall, plus some reparation of some kind by House Bracken.-Ereth

Overarching Plans for all of the above/ How to bring peace.

Pass and edict that both Houses must stabilize their lands (obtain 31 Law Points) before they can invest in anything else. Depending on their House rolls, it may take them years to do that. -Nathan

Overall, the more wealth and power we drain from them, and the more we force them to invest in things like Law, the less likely they will have the ability to attack each other for months or years to come.-Nathan

Plan to marry Kerry Bracken and Benji
Arguments for: A possibility to create peace, bring unity and prosperity.
Arguments against: Way out of what we were sent here for, forcing it leads to issues and the relative age of the two.
People for: Arlyn, Yoren
People against: Nathan, Ereth, Theomore.

[size=150:1cb27ct6]Discussions:

Can we trace back fault to Gorman Tully? Who is to blame for a mans subject? Can we draw the actions of a man back to his commander for not intervening?

Baelon wrote:Following the logic of holding Lord Haig responsible for not controlling his troops would also mean holding Lord Gorman Tully responsible for all of these acts for not controlling his liegemen, and in turn holding the King responsible for not controlling Lord Gorman. Not following the logic to it's conclusion would be a bit too hypocritical for my taste. No, better to reject the logic in the first place, and recognize men at arms are not puppets, have their own will, and sometimes act contrary to the wishes of their commanders.

Ben wrote:Not that I disagree with you Baelon, but I would like to see Tully held responsible for everything. One because he is partially responsible. Heads should have rolled long ago. Two, it doubly hurts the greens, Bracken and Tully getting smacked.

As for the king he may have acted late for his part,but has taken action against the behaviour of his liegeman.

All that said I put "
if"
in my sentencing line for a reason, I do not feel it likely we would pin it on Haig. So if that was not Haig, what of the mines and pursuing into Darry? At what point does a Lord take responsibility? Only when it is a direct order? That leaves room for much malice and circumventing. Just putting it out there for everyone to think about.

Arlyn wrote:That sounds like a slippery slope to me. No I think that Lord Haig should be help responsible for his men if Benji is responsible for his men attacking the brackens out of grief.

Now if Lord Haig *ordered* the attack then it would be Lord Tully's responsibility to answer for his bannermen, or if Lord Tully wished to intervene and take responsibility for his bannermens lack of control for his own men, that is on him.

The king would be so far removed/insulated that unless he ordered Lord Tully to disrupt trade with dorne then I do not see how he could be held responsible. I mean he could take responsibility if he wished to and declare it as an act of war against dorne, but if we are here to establish peace I doubt he wants a war with dorne.

Ereth wrote:The(re is a) difference (...) you can be certain benji order the attack, (...) (That Haigh is behind his mens attack) you are not.

Same train of thought, then Blackwoods and maester should pay for his actions too, afterall it is their retainer, Im sure they helped him clean out his mess for him.

If you go this way, you will not get peace either, the Ser Rufus will be the mastermind and can pay for it dately. Both houses should pay Darry. We know a blackwood should take the black, and pay for it to the Brackens, while brackend pay for mines.

Just remember you are looking for peace, and not always the best way is harsh pubishment, but cant be linient either.

Baelon wrote:

Benedict Marsten wrote:Not that I disagree with you Baelon, but I would like to see Tully held responsible for everything. One because he is partially responsible. Heads should have rolled long ago. Two, it doubly hurts the greens, Bracken and Tully getting smacked.

Oh, I fully agree with you here, but I think going after Lord Tully is a bit beyond the scope of our authority.... as much as I would like to see his head roll.

Septon Arlyn wrote:That sounds like a slippery slope to me.

Not in the slightest. A slippery slope fallacy is based on NOT applying logical rules of deduction to one's conclusions - just jumping from conclusion to conclusion without justification (otherwise all arguments, no matter how valid, would be slippery slopes). I am making a point of what would happen if we DO apply those logical rules of deduction, based upon the axiom that a lord is culpable for the actions of those sworn to them.

Septon Arlyn wrote:So far we (being IC knowledge of what happened) know that Theomore has been involved with the sell sword company at all, except for Lady Corrine and Ser Walton and whoever they told. Theomore has presented Ser Walton with the idea that the second attack was used to cover up the first.

Your IC information is probably not the same as everyone's IC information. Further, this is an OOC thread so I was speaking with OOC information as well.... such as Theo's threads where he [url=takes a bribe to cover up what happened at Pennytree][/url] and his cohort [url=murders a witness][/url].

Now, when we IC learn about that bribe we can hold Lord Haig responsible for that, certainly.

[quote=Loreia]Since the royal banner needed to get involved on his behalf (however inevitable when the mines were damaged), a significant loss of influence is only natural and appropriate. We don't need to lift a finger to see to it that House Tully takes that hit. Or perhaps we only need raise our voice in our reports, or during our say on judgment day?[/quote]

Summary:
Baelon says no, Yoren agrees. Ben and Arlyn dissagrees.

Should we send Benjicot as a ward to avoid that he learns from his house to hate the Brackens?
(This is a massive thread over several threads and dozens of PMs. This is just a few examples from this thread)

Arlyn wrote:we need to marry Lord Benjicot to Lady Kerry and move both of them from house blackwoods and Brackens lands.

Ereth wrote:
If it's just Banji for the sake of making him to not hate so much and be a "
guest"
with another Black House until he is 15 and able to rule I suppose. I can see this as a more plausible argument.

[quote"
Nathan"
]Based on past history, Benjicot would most likely go squire for Lord Marsten till he came of age.[/quote]

Ereth wrote:Benji can resume his place with the Marsten too and be perfectly plausible if not natural option.

Arlyn wrote:While I would not be apposed to that, there might be some who would be saying that house Marsten would be using the authority given to them by the king inappropriately if they were to benefit from the peace treaty.That is why I made the suggestion of the starks in winterfell. However, not that I think about it, the manderlies might not be a half bad option either, as that would make them a banner house of the old gods while keeping the seven themselves as concessions to both the blackwoods and the brackens.

Baelon wrote:I'm opposed to removing Benji from House Blackwood at all, whether to Marsten, Stark, or hell, even Drakeson custody. No, the solution isn't to remove him from House Blackwood, it is to remove the most hate-filled.

[quote"
Terren"
]The primary reason for making him a ward is not really about green <
=>
black (although in Dragon's dance it always is a factor), it is to ensure he doesn't start developing negative emotions towards the Brackens, like most of house Blackwood. Although I do agree that we shouldn't push our luck by appointing another regent, we have (nearly) nothing to gain and a lot to lose.[/quote]

Theomore wrote:
With such a motivation, I would leave it largely to Ser Myles to determine where the boy should go. Marsten would be the more obvious candidate among PC houses, then Coldbrook followed by Tullison. Outside the Riverlands, we have Royce and Stark, but we don't have time to send a Raven there and back, so that would require a stipulation of the sort that "
Benji is to foster with a lord of house Blackwood's choosing and the approval of the undersigned houses"
. But this will be viewed as additional punishment of the Blackwoods, though it could mitigate the impact of sending Haig to the wall or exile or whatever if we go with a clean out the wound by removing the things that made it fester approach. Or come in place of other sort of punishment.

Terren has IC suggested Lord Tully to be a place to send lord Benjicot. Corrine picks up on it OOC

Corrine wrote:Not going to happen. Corrine will either stop that madness or die trying. I'm serious.

Currently this is the PCs who has expressed a stance
Thinking it's a bad idea to move him for peace:Corrine, Gwyneth, Baelon and probably Ben
Thinking it's a good idea to move him for peace: Terren, Ereth, Walton, Garred,
People who has expressed themselves ambigously: Theomore, Nathan, Yoren

[size=150:1cb27ct6]Other peoples (use)full summaries of everything:

Benedict Marsten wrote:This is Mine/Ben's opinions.

Salted fields - essentially solved with evidence and confession
Tryon Blackwood- needs a black cloak to match his heart

Raventree - essentially solved awaiting trap
Suspect -Death (may come down to trial by combat)

Septry- solved with confession
Olivier Lucas- see Nathan and Corrine

False flag - essentially solved in need of resolution
Lord Benjicott - apology and reparations

Blackbuckle - solved with confession
Maester Arran - death

Ironmines - I am unsure
Brackens - reparations

Borderlands - iffy as to fault
If reparations are called for then both houses should pay

Pennytree - original attack essentially solved with confessions and evidence
If we hold Haig accountable for his troops - reparations(but to who? Dornish?)

Pennytree - new attack unsure
Not a Blackwood/Bracken problem

These most recent events seemed to have kicked off due to Brackens encroachment in the mines. A point that needs to highlighted. Possibly with further punishment or more harsh punishments in their actual crimes.

Tyron Blackwood minor discussion

Theomore on the salted fields on Tyron wrote:Note on Tyron: The trick here is that if we send him to the wall, it can be construed as it being his guilt, and not the fault of House Blackwood, thus strongly lessening Blackwood responsibility. A compromise might be to allow the Blackwoods to ransom him from suffering such a fate, and the ransom being earmarked to rectify the damages of his actions.

Answer from Nathan wrote:OOC: If you want Peace, and if you expect reparations, sending Ser Tyron to the Wall would be a huge problem. Does what Tryon did rise to the level of a Wall crime during a time of war? (Is there ever not a time of war between these two Houses?)

I'll update the list if people add information or thoughts.

then there is the assassination - I suspect Lord Bracken will be doing a lot of grovelling for that and have chunks of his house executed or sent to the wall.
Benjicot has done only one thing wrong
Ser Hugh is believed dead and will be going to the wall
Ser Tyron is a loon who needs putting on a leash to prevent him from breaking the peace again

Updated with Jorahs opinions, I will add the opinions from the D4 assembly soon too.

Corrine is in favour of stripping Maester Arran of his chain.

Yeah, but that's not our call to make. Only the Citadel can do that.

Gwyneth Drakeson wrote:Yeah, but that's not our call to make. Only the Citadel can do that.

Yes, but it's on the list of proposals above, which other people have their views on. It's just a list of opinions. Nobody is proposing to do it themselves right now.

Oh oh, I see. Sorry, my bad.

For which crime is Benji found guilty?

Kevan Lyras wrote:For which crime is Benji found guilty?

Breaking the banner of truce, I think.

I think Corrine would suggest getting Haig, Myles, and Benji together with her and other investigators to try just getting them to talk and find common ground. A reflection of her naïvete, perhaps, but she'd still suggest it to them, out of hopefulness.

to be fair, that is kinda happening a little

Ser Jorah Holt wrote:to be fair, that is kinda happening a little

Due to some excelent manipulation by yoren here... yep


[url:1tgwev9u]http:
//dragonsdance.
forumatic.
com/viewtopic.
php?f=173&
t=2337&
p=65877#p65447[/url:1tgwev9u]

Yoren longshore wrote:Several bandits/impoverished peasants: indict them for their actions or give them new farms where they can work? Send them away or reposition them close?

Who do you mean, are you saying we found and captured the people who attacked the septry? Or are you referring to the people who surrendered in the caves where we tracked the wildfire(after the inn blew up)?

Excellent thread.

Maester Arran - will be stripped of his chains. Citadel replies by Raven post story 2.

I recommend phrasing you judgement to answer the original charges raised in the royal summons, alongside any bonus findings. Provides symmetry, pleases royal court and stops you lot missing anything.

Good work so far.

This is Mine/Ben's opinions.

Salted fields - essentially solved with evidence and confession
Tryon Blackwood- needs a black cloak to match his heart

Raventree - essentially solved awaiting trap
Suspect -Death (may come down to trial by combat)

Septry- solved with confession
Olivier Lucas- see Nathan and Corrine

False flag - essentially solved in need of resolution
Lord Benjicott - apology and reparations

Blackbuckle - solved with confession
Maester Arran - death

Ironmines - I am unsure
Brackens - reparations

Borderlands - iffy as to fault
If reparations are called for then both houses should pay

Pennytree - original attack essentially solved with confessions and evidence
If we hold Haig accountable for his troops - reparations(but to who? Dornish?)

Pennytree - new attack unsure
Not a Blackwood/Bracken problem

These most recent events seemed to have kicked off due to Brackens encroachment in the mines. A point that needs to highlighted. Possibly with further punishment or more harsh punishments in their actual crimes.

I guess Inmissed this but who confessed to the first PennyTree attack?

No one has confessed yet, but there is pretty strong evidence that the brackens heavy cavalry were responsible for it.

I thought there was a Blackwood also involved with the murder, or I lost track lol very possible

Luecian LongBow wrote:I guess Inmissed this but who confessed to the first PennyTree attack?

My good man, a smart man never reveals his info. Or Theo may have them killed!

Ereth Redwain wrote:I thought there was a Blackwood also involved with the murder, or I lost track lol very possible

A Blackwood servant gave out plans I believe. I could be wrong. Perhaps Kevan can shed light on this one, its his baby.

The first Pennytree attack was committed by Bracken troops, acting to line their own pockets, not as a deliberate act on the part of House Bracken.
The second attack was by Black lesser knights, covering up for the Bracken (Green) troops...

The second attack was insufficient though, so whomever *cough*Theo*cough* was behind it failed.
The cover-up of the second attack is ongoing, so it may or may not succeed...

Following the logic of holding Lord Haig responsible for not controlling his troops would also mean holding Lord Gorman Tully responsible for all of these acts for not controlling his liegemen, and in turn holding the King responsible for not controlling Lord Gorman. Not following the logic to it's conclusion would be a bit too hypocritical for my taste. No, better to reject the logic in the first place, and recognize men at arms are not puppets, have their own will, and sometimes act contrary to the wishes of their commanders.

More like Lord Haig resorting to sellswords to cover up for the crimes of his men :8-):

Which actually is true.

Theomore Tullison wrote:More like Lord Haig resorting to sellswords to cover up for the crimes of his men :8-):

Which actually is true.

And not at all contrary to what I said...
I just had more detail about who those sellswords were. :8-):

Not that I disagree with you Baelon, but I would like to see Tully held responsible for everything. One because he is partially responsible. Heads should have rolled long ago. Two, it doubly hurts the greens, Bracken and Tully getting smacked.

As for the king he may have acted late for his part,but has taken action against the behaviour of his leigeman.

All that said I put "
if"
in my sentencing line for a reason, I do not feel it likely we would pin it on Haig. So if that was not Haig, what of the mines and pursuing into Darry? At what point does a Lord take responsibility? Only when it is a direct order? That leaves room for much malice and circumventing. Just putting it out there for everyone to think about.

Baelon wrote:

Following the logic of holding Lord Haig responsible for not controlling his troops would also mean holding Lord Gorman Tully responsible for all of these acts for not controlling his liegemen, and in turn holding the King responsible for not controlling Lord Gorman. Not following the logic to it's conclusion would be a bit too hypocritical for my taste. No, better to reject the logic in the first place, and recognize men at arms are not puppets, have their own will, and sometimes act contrary to the wishes of their commanders.

That sounds like a slippery slope to me. No I think that Lord Haig should be help responsible for his men if Benji is responsible for his men attacking the brackens out of grief.

Now if Lord Haig *ordered* the attack then it would be Lord Tully's responsibility to answer for his bannermen, or if Lord Tully wished to intervene and take responsibility for his bannermens lack of control for his own men, that is on him.

The king would be so far removed/insulated that unless he ordered Lord Tully to disrupt trade with dorne then I do not see how he could be held responsible. I mean he could take responsibility if he wished to and declare it as an act of war against dorne, but if we are here to establish peace I doubt he wants a war with dorne.


So far we (being IC knowledge of what happened) know that Theomore has been involved with the sell sword company at all, except for Lady Corrine and Ser Walton and whoever they told. Theomore has presented Ser Walton with the idea that the second attack was used to cover up the first.

The difference is that you can be certain benji order the attack, the other one you are not.

Same train of thought, then Blackwoods and maester should pay for his actions too, afterall it is their retainer, Im sure they helped him clean out his mess for him.

If you go this way, you will not get peace either, the Ser Rufus will be the mastermind and can pay for it dately. Both houses should pay Darry. We know a blackwood should take the black, and pay for it to the Brackens, while brackend pay for mines.

Just remember you are looking for peace, and not always the best way is harsh pubishment, but cant be linient either.