Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishment.

Benedict Marsten wrote:Not that I disagree with you Baelon, but I would like to see Tully held responsible for everything. One because he is partially responsible. Heads should have rolled long ago. Two, it doubly hurts the greens, Bracken and Tully getting smacked.

Oh, I fully agree with you here, but I think going after Lord Tully is a bit beyond the scope of our authority.... as much as I would like to see his head roll.

Septon Arlyn wrote:That sounds like a slippery slope to me.

Not in the slightest. A slippery slope fallacy is based on NOT applying logical rules of deduction to one's conclusions - just jumping from conclusion to conclusion without justification (otherwise all arguments, no matter how valid, would be slippery slopes). I am making a point of what would happen if we DO apply those logical rules of deduction, based upon the axiom that a lord is culpable for the actions of those sworn to them.

Septon Arlyn wrote:So far we (being IC knowledge of what happened) know that Theomore has been involved with the sell sword company at all, except for Lady Corrine and Ser Walton and whoever they told. Theomore has presented Ser Walton with the idea that the second attack was used to cover up the first.

Your IC information is probably not the same as everyone's IC information. Further, this is an OOC thread so I was speaking with OOC information as well.... such as Theo's threads where he [url=takes a bribe to cover up what happened at Pennytree][/url] and his cohort [url=murders a witness][/url].

Now, when we IC learn about that bribe we can hold Lord Haig responsible for that, certainly.

Indeed: everyone should be aware that others might have more IC information (Ellie passed an early Awareness test, several others might have information from Rumours/NPCs).

Beyond that - maybe easier to keep this thread to the other crimes, albeit Theomore's wickedness is part of the tale and may come up in the final judgement, but best to leave it to a separate thread.

Enjoying the discussion so far: how far are lords responsible? What's right/politically sensible? Various issues for everyone to consider here.

Something Theomore will be pushing, as will become clear in various IC threads either planned or ongoing, is to not mention Dorne in the treaty, caravans, yes, Dornish caravans, no. Along with the story of what happened at Pennytree, with a dose of self-serving censorship. Theomore's part in all that fun is best to be determined by someone else for OOC reasons (and because it will pave the way for a glorious epilogue scene).

But in effect we have more or less resolved:
Septry: Olyvar Lucas did it.
Salted Fields: Tyron Blackwood responsible.
False Flag: Lord Benji responsible.
Blackbuckle: Maester Arran responsible.

Raventree: Ser Rupert responsible, but investigation into co-conspirators pending?
Iron Mines: Brackens did the damage, but both were fighting?
Borderlands: Brackens did the damage, but both were fighting?

Pennytree1: Bracken soldiers did it.
Pennytree2: Matter up for debate.

There's of course the matter of weighting things up against each other. Theomore would for example rank the assassination of Lord Blackwood as more serious than say, destruction of property or straight up military operations.

Indeed. The order the crimes are listed in, the severity of the punishments and how they are described in the final treaty are all important.

Benedict Marsten wrote:

Luecian LongBow wrote:I guess Inmissed this but who confessed to the first PennyTree attack?

My good man, a smart man never reveals his info. Or Theo may have them killed!

True enough! Maybe I should spread some rumors around npc's that Luecian isn't overly fond of and how they seem to have critical evidence...


I don't think there is a confession yet but Luecian along with Kevan and Arlyn is hopefully going to tie the first attack to a specific person on D6, then we might have a shot on a confession.

Hi! I have updated the first post with a format. Of people would like to use that format stuff would be a lot easier for me :;
):
I'm working on getting in all of your opinions into that post right now, so it would just be good for future posts...

Reader wrote:The Brackens are a religious, martial house and the stable master was swayed by the force of Septon Arlyn and Ser Kevan's words. It was perhaps unsurprising that a man of Short Tom's background and profession should find his words carried less word here.

Conrad the stable master did more than simply allow the investigators unfettered access: indeed he showed them around the stables personally, offering explanations and advice. He confirmed damage to several steeds from salt aggravated cuts and commented on a thrown horseshoe or two: both evidence of warhorses being used for unorthodox manoeuvres he tutted, stroking his bushy brown beard. The man cared at least as much for horseflesh as for his house.

Ok just some clarification here. It appears that the Bracken's were salting fields as well. But there is no report of the Blackwood's having salted fields. Does this mean that the Bracken's salted their own fields to make the Blackwood's seem worse? Or was that merely a mistake on readers part and the Bracken's have not salted any fields

I think it's just from travel across their own damaged lands, that was my take at least. He was showing other affects of the damage on House Bracken.

Luecian LongBow wrote:I think it's just from travel across their own damaged lands, that was my take at least. He was showing other affects of the damage on House Bracken.

This is the case!

Further: well done again to Yoren and I recommend people follow his formatting to help him.

Ok, just verifying.

Septon Arlyn wrote:Ok, just verifying.

Np, it's part of my job.

I may be missing something. Who the hell is Rupert? Is this a typo of Rufus Bracken, the headless?

Yoren Longshore wrote:Several bandits/impoverished peasants: indict them for their actions or give them new farms where they can work? Send them away or reposition them close?

I never got any clarity in response to my earlier question. Who are these bandits and peasants, and what are they guilty of? I don't know what you're referring to.

Loreia's perspectives and preferences.

Scenes
Salted Fields
Tyron Blackwood
Echoing what Ben said: send him to the Wall.

False Flag
Benjicot Blackwood
Solutions obtained in the following threads. No comment.
[url=Only the young][/url]
[url=A beastly audience][/url]

Blackbuckle
Maester Arran
Just kill him. Give him to Lord Haig to hack off his head himself for some vengeance as a consolation. Parading him about the village of Blackbuckle is a waste of time.

Iron mines
Brackens pay reparations to House Blackwood and to House Targaryen.

Borderlands
Blackwood lured Bracken troops over the border, where they set up long-term camp to stage ambushes. A few of the men who served under the commanding officer will go to the Wall. No property damage, so no reparations, but they should pay recompense to House Darry for disturbing peace on Darry land.

Pennytree
Soldiers need to fear an example. Loreia would like a few guilty Bracken soldiers to A)go to the Wall, or B)lose fingers or a hand for robbing merchants. A or B, whichever is custom. She favors the fingers/hands.

Discussions...
On Gorman Tully
Since the royal banner needed to get involved on his behalf (however inevitable when the mines were damaged), a significant loss of influence is only natural and appropriate. We don't need to lift a finger to see to it that House Tully takes that hit. Or perhaps we only need raise our voice in our reports, or during our say on judgment day?

Loreia: House Tully indeed suffers an influence hit automatically, exacerbated/mitigated by the final report.

Septry
Olyver Lucas - The Wall
+House Lucas pay small reparations to House Daleford for falsely accusing them and involvement - check (I think)
+Reparations to House Bracken to rebuild the Septry

Salted Fields
Tyron Blackwood (The Wall) - Most agree I think.
+Reparations paid to House Bracken, salted fields are big loss of revenue and food shortage, which needs to be addressed still. Not doing this will not help the peace.

False Flag
Benjicot Blackwood
Solution obtained - Apology and admitting the crime - check

Blackbuckle
Maester Arran
Solution obtained (death) - after he loses hi chain
Touring Blackbuckle - check
Remove his chain - check
Solution obtained (House Blackwood helps with reparations and denounce the crime) - check

Iron mines
House Bracken pays reparation.
+Most Houses (including Blackwood) help rebuild this.

Borderlands
Blackwood should pay the reparations to House Darry, not Bracken. They are using their lands for attacking, which causes some of the losses. It's only natural House Bracken fights them back and pursue when appropriate. There is also the possibility that House Darry is involved with House Blackwood on it too, otherwise they would ask reparations from both Houses, not just Bracken.

Pennytree
Some Bracken soldiers to the wall, some executed, the rest can lose some fingers.
+House Bracken denounces the crime.

Discussions...
On Gorman Tully
I think there is no need, House Tully will get a considerable hit already, as well as Gorman Tully himself.

PC Houses Pledges of help:

House Bartheld
Food and supplies (I think)

House Coldbrook
Engineers for Septry

House Dulver
Engineers for Septry

House Drakeson
??????

House Kytley
??????

House Longshore
+1 Wealth to Septry

House Marsten
???????

House Tullison
+X Wealth? to Iron Mines

House Redwain
-Engineers for Iron Mines (Sending them to mines, since 2 Houses went to the Septry)

Edit: Added Coldbrook and Dulver engineers.

houses coldbrook and dulver have committed engineers to rebuild the septry

Thanks, I'll edit my post and keep adding things as we go by of what PC Houses have pledged.

The peace agreement should not require any action by any house other than Bracken &
Blackwood. Why? Every additional house included would be another house we must get on board with it... and that just makes it unnecessarily complicated. We can (and, I think, should) include condemnations against Lord Gorman, Olyver Lucas, etc;
however reparations and such should be negotiated separately from this treaty.

The problem is Olyver Lucas attacked the Septry, and when he tryed to frame House Daleford.

You are right, in the peace agreement itself, is about 2 houses only, but things from those Houses must be solved, including House Darry.

The list is not about what goes in the document itself, just what is being done as crime, who did it, and punishments.

After all, it's up to several PC Houses what they lave out or not, and their reasons for it.

Olyvar did act on his own though, so punishing House Lucas for that would make us need to punish Bracken and Blackwood for everything their subordinates did (beyond punishing their subordinates).

Well... As servers of the kings justice, no house has to get on board with it, unless they would be willing to take issue with disputing the edict from the king. We are acting with the kings authority here, and as such our suggestions will be made law.

My 2 cents based on the IC information I have.

The Septry Attack.

The bandits have been dealt with, and Ser Olyvar Lucas is being punished, his reputation destroyed, and is being ransomed back to House Lucas to pay for the rebuilding of the Sept and to pay compensation to House Daleford. I don't see that there is much more to do with that situation.

The Salted Lands.

If you want a Peace treaty, sending Ser Tyron to the Wall is not an option. Have House Blackwood pay compensation to House Bracken for the damage.

The Assassination.

Unless the involvement of Ser Steffan comes to light, we have the head of Ser Ruffas. Unless it can be proved this was done with the blessing of Lord Bracken, I am not sure how much House Bracken can be held responsible.

Flag of Truce.

I am deeply unconvinced that a six year old was responsible. Even if he gave a direct order to attack, who commanded the forces to engage the Brackens. Where was the adult in all this, or did the men simply follow the order of a child because they wanted an excuse. Still, if an apology from 'Lord Blackwood' will set the matter to rest, that's fine. It's not 'justice' to use a child as a scapegoat, but it is probably good politics.

Iron Mines.

No real idea where we are with that. The situation is such a huge mess.

Blackbuckle.

Publicly execute Maester Arran. Ser Myles Blackwood has already agreed to assist with the restoration of the town.

House Darry.

There was 5 points of damage, and they want 5 more points in compensation. I am currently inclined to have House Bracken pay 7 points for doing the damage, and House Blackwood 3 points for instigating the situation.

Pennytree.

If men turn bandit, you hunt them down and hang them (or send them to the wall). Lord Bracken has a lot of plausible deniability in this situation, however we can hold him to the cost of this by forcing him to invest in Law points. My guess is that he would rather be investing in wealth or power after we leave.


Overall, the more wealth and power we drain from them, and the more we force them to invest in things like Law, the less likely they will have the ability to attack each other for months or years to come.

My main suggestion:
Pass and edict that both Houses must stabilize their lands (obtain 31 Law Points) before they can invest in anything else. Depending on their House rolls, it may take them years to do that.

.

Nathaniel Mason wrote:House Darry.

There was 5 points of damage, and they want 5 more points in compensation. I am currently inclined to have House Bracken pay 7 points for doing the damage, and House Blackwood 3 points for instigating the situation.

I would suggest House Bracken 6, Blackwood 4. They are both equally guilty, and that is if the Darry's weren't turning the blind eye to what the Blackwood's were doing in their lands for some gain.

That is a good Idea, However historically the peace only lasted for that amount of time if there was a marriage involved. I think that to seal the deal we need to marry Lord Benjicot to Lady Kerry and move both of them from house blackwoods and Brackens lands. If Ser Tyron is not convinced to take the Black to pay for his mistakes and simply reparations are made, I fear that he will poison Benicot against the Brackens, and we might lose our chance here. I've tried to initiate an Intrigue with him, convincing him to take the black and save his families honor, but He will simply quit against me, as I am too green for his liking. Maybe someone of a blacker persuasion might be able to convince him to do it, for the good of his family.

Terren has IC suggested Lord Tully to be a place to send lord Benjicot, I'm in favor of sending both him and lady kerry there, away from their families, to be married once Benjicot reaches the age of majority. The other option is to send both Lord Benjicot and Lady Kerry to live with the starks. They are lord paramount as well and as far as I can tell not leaning green or black. They Also worship the old gods, which is a concession to the blackwoods.

Septon Arlyn wrote:That is a good Idea, However historically the peace only lasted for that amount of time if there was a marriage involved. I think that to seal the deal we need to marry Lord Benjicot to Lady Kerry and move both of them from house blackwoods and Brackens lands. If Ser Tyron is not convinced to take the Black to pay for his mistakes and simply reparations are made, I fear that he will poison Benicot against the Brackens, and we might lose our chance here. I've tried to initiate an Intrigue with him, convincing him to take the black and save his families honor, but He will simply quit against me, as I am too green for his liking. Maybe someone of a blacker persuasion might be able to convince him to do it, for the good of his family.

Terren has IC suggested Lord Tully to be a place to send lord Benjicot, I'm in favor of sending both him and lady kerry there, away from their families, to be married once Benjicot reaches the age of majority. The other option is to send both Lord Benjicot and Lady Kerry to live with the starks. They are lord paramount as well and as far as I can tell not leaning green or black. They Also worship the old gods, which is a concession to the blackwoods.

Lord Benjicort is to young. IF Sofia Blackwood was available a marriage with Wyll Braccken would have sealed the deal, butshe is wed to Ser Kevan, and Lady Kerry is to old for Benjicort I suppose.