Re: Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishm

by **Kevan Lyras** Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:43 pm

Reader wrote:
Kevan Lyras wrote:
Who? question
Steffon Vance (Bracken master of arms, Ser Rufus Bracken was his alleged accomplice (both listed on NPC page). The latter is now deceased, his body presented to the Marstens as a scapegoat. Steffon Vance has been arrested, as have his co-conspirators (Sandor and Arthur, lowly guardsmen) in the Blackwood assassination. Don't worry if you missed this, lots going on.

I have to add the servant traitor of house Blackwood who sold out his lord. He is in my custody and has to hang for his crimes (name escapes mw right now, will have to look it up)

Terry. He has a son (Unforgiven style: "
I was building a house?"
.

viewtopic.php?f=175&
t=1939

Let justice be done.

A son whose extraordinary expensive medicine I paid for personally :;
):

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Dec 31, 2015 6:44 pm

I think it would be not out ot line to denounce the use of torture. I'm planning on having a conversation with lord Haig later about that very subject Smile

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:05 pm

Septon Arlyn wrote:I think it would be not out ot line to denounce the use of torture. I'm planning on having a conversation with lord Haig later about that very subject

On the contrary, I think this is very much NOT the place to make any social commentary. Remember, our houses are not of particularly high social importance. If we try to use this document as a bully pulpit, we run the risk of bringing significant wrath upon ourselves - possibly from the King himself, who could issue attainders stripping us of lands and titles if he so chose.

by **Gwyneth Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Yar...it's one thing to have personal opinions and discussions. That's another matter entirely.

But this treaty is an official document, and it has bearing on all of us and our Houses. It's going to err on the side of conservativeness out of sheer necessity.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:11 pm

Even though torture is common, that does not mean it is necessarily socially acceptable.

by **Gwyneth Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:13 pm

It is socially acceptable in Westeros;
even expected in some circumstances.

It's fine for it not to be personally acceptable to the Septon. That makes a lot of sense. But we can't put personal stuff in this document. It has to stand for all of us, as well as for the Seven Kingdoms as a whole.

by **Reader** Thu Dec 31, 2015 7:13 pm

Benedict Marsten wrote:Quick question, who deals with survivors from the Peacemaker's combats? Would they fall in our treaty/jurisdiction?

They're under your jurisdiction (and can subsequently be passed over to Blackwood/Bracken, executed, sent to the wall, flogged, made to sing a merry tune etc).

Kevan: I'm sure Terry's child will remember that when he's grown up for DwD story 15 and comes to kill you. He'll pay for your children's medicine too. Evil or Very Mad

I like the way this guy thinks, all about that drama...

Theomore Tullison wrote:We could hand Ser Olyvar over to Lord Haig

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:11 pm

Ok, here is Draft 2, now including the punishment section. Mechanics notes are in [brackets]. Of course, Reader is fully allowed to gloss over the mechanics as he sees fit. :;
):

I think I came up with something that will get Ser Tyron to take the Black without being a blatantly excessive punishment.
Also, I think I have a creative punishment fitting for Ser Olyvar.
I also expanded the Law investment section a bit to make it seem less like a hammer upside the head. Basically, they get to deduct their rebuilding costs from the mandatory peacekeeping expenditures.

I have nothing down regarding House Darry... I'm really not sure what to do about that mess.

As before nitpicking/feedback welcome!

(oh, and a little something for us - though not by name - for all our hard word/expenditures)

We the undersigned, acting upon the authority granted unto our represented houses by His Grace, King Viserys Targaryen, First of His Name, King of the Andals and the Rhoynar and the First Men, Protector of the Realm, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Defender of the Realm, do hereby declare that the following is a true and accurate accounting of crimes committed by Houses Bracken and Blackwood, and a fair and just punishment to be meted out for the same.

[size=150:2oirq6x3]I. Crimes

Let it be known that these crimes were investigated by representatives of the houses of Marsten, Bartheld, Coldbrook, Dulver, Kytley, Longshore, and Tullison:

Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Rufus Bracken, with the aid of various lesser men, did without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors plot and execute the assassination of Lord Bryan Blackwood and his wife, the Lady Reina.

Maester Arran of House Blackwood, without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of his superiors, did poison the well of the village of Blackbuckle, ending countless innocent lives as well as the lives of various Bracken soldiers and torturers, for the purpose of ending the suffering of Blackwood soldiers held captive and tormented there.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did fortify their respective iron mines, depriving the crown of vital resources for the war in the Stepstones. Upon attack by House Bracken, soldiers of House Blackwood did fire the supports of the Blackwood mines in an attempt to render the Bracken attack profitless.

House Bracken soldiers, acting dishonorably without the foreknowledge, consent, or authorization of their superiors, did attack a merchant caravan from Dorne for the purpose of personal profit.

Ser Tyron Blackwood did lead a regiment of Blackwood cavalry in the salting of fields in the vicinity of Warrior’s Seat.

Bandits in the employ of Ser Olyvar Lucas did sack the Septry at Battle Valley, falsely bearing the arms of House Blackwood and thereby did wrong to House Blackwood, House Bracken, and the Faith of the Seven.

Both House Bracken and House Blackwood did violate the borders of their lands with House Darry, with Ser Tyron Blackwood using Darry lands as a point of refuge and staging ground for attacks and Ser Wyll Bracken, pursuing his attackers, did cause damage to Darry lands and holdings.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having recently been orphaned, did in his grief and youthful impulsiveness order an attack from under a flag of mourning upon Bracken troops.

[size=150:2oirq6x3]II. Punishments

The following have been determined to be appropriate punishments for the aforementioned crimes.

II.A. Punishments levied upon House Bracken and House Blackwood.

Each of House Bracken and House Blackwood shall send forth a member of high position [Status 4+] to join the Night’s Watch as a symbolic act of contrition and forgiveness-seeking. As perpetrators of various crimes listed above, it is the strong recommendation of the representatives that Ser Steffon Vance and Ser Tyron Blackwood fulfill this obligation, and thereby be forgiven of their crimes, obviating the relevant punishments below.

No less than one quarter of each houses’ revenue income shall be spent on reconstruction, repair and maintenance of lands and holdings, for a period of no less than ten years or until the lands and holdings of the house have been restored. [25% of House Fortune income must be for Lands, Population, or Wealth (only if earmarked for the relevant holdings)]

No less that one quarter of each houses’ revenue income, plus any remainder from the previous item after a house’s lands and holdings have been repaired or rebuilt, shall be spent on internal peacekeeping efforts, for a period of no less than ten years. [50% of House Fortune income must be for Law or for the previous item, no less than 25% towards Law]

All revenues from the Bracken iron mine and the adjacent Blackwood iron mine, including the vein of crystal discovered therein during the investigation, shall be used to refund the generous donations of coin and services made by outside parties in this time of crisis, for a period of no less than two years;
income from these mines for the following three years shall be granted to the Crown. [Game mechanics effects at Reader’s discretion]

II.B. Punishments levied against individuals

Ser Steffon Vance shall be executed in a manner determined by Lord Haig Bracken.

Maester Arran shall be executed in a manner determined by Lord Benjicot Blackwood’s regent, Ser Myles Blackwood. It is the recommendation of the representatives that the Citadel of Oldtown posthumously strip Maester Arran of his chain, and provide a new Maester of good character and peaceful disposition to House Blackwood.

Ser Tyron Blackwood shall turn over one half of the revenue income of his lands to House Bracken for a period of no less than three years, and his son, Jojen Blackwood, will be made ward and squire to Lord Haig Bracken.

Ser Olyvar Lucas shall serve as Warden of the Sept at Battle Valley for a period of no less than three years, living among the Brothers and receiving no incomes for his service. Any incomes earned by other means shall be donated to the Sept at Battle Valley to be used as alms for the unfortunate.

Lord Benjicot Blackwood, having shown remorse for his crime and on account of his age, shall be forgiven with no further punishments.

You have no idea how much I wish we could set the font of post text. The document looks so much better in Goudy Old Style. geek

EDIT: whoo, that a real wall of text. Well, it's almost up to 900 words - I've written shorter papers for grad school. Laughing

:?
Added some formatting to the section headers to break it up.

by **Theomore Tullison** Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:27 pm

Suggesting to send Steffon Vance as the Bracken guy to go to the wall when he is sentenced to death further down is kinda weird.

by **Gwyneth Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:33 pm

I think the idea is to impress on everyone the choice involved. Go to the Wall (and thus be absolved) or die.

by **Reader** Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:37 pm

I emailed Baelon a few tweaks (typo stuff) that he made immediately (cheers!).

Wonderful work. Debating specifics is for the players, but things like this are a great wrap-up and make the whole thing worth it to me. Smile

Agree on the volume of work, but things like this will hopefully be fun to look back on.

Glad to see Viserys is still King of the Rhoynar and that my research wasn't wasted. :;
):

Happy to help on questions via this thread.

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 8:50 pm

Theomore Tullison wrote:Suggesting to send Steffon Vance as the Bracken guy to go to the wall when he is sentenced to death further down is kinda weird.

Gwyneth Drakeson wrote:I think the idea is to impress on everyone the choice involved. Go to the Wall (and thus be absolved) or die.

Yeah, basically if they (as individuals) volunteer to fill the mandatory (for their houses) NW volunteer, they are (as per custom) forgiven of their crimes, and thus not be punished for them.

Ser Steffon might refuse out of sheer pride/stubbornness, and be executed. At that point House Bracken is in a real bind... they are lacking in Status 4+ males. I imagine Lord Haig would take the Black rather than having Ser Wyl to do so.... which wouldn't be all bad for the ongoing peace efforts. Also, if Ser Wyl does go, that would leave the succession to of Brother Kyle? Lady Kerry? Neither would be terrible options for establishing peace. I almost wish Ser Steffion would refuse... but I doubt he will.

Ser Tyron might refuse, forcing someone else from House Blackwood (Ser Colyn Manderly, perhaps) to go to the Wall, but only if he's willing to let his son be ward and squire to Lord Haig... protecting one's children is powerful motivator... though I doubt Lord Haig would really be that bad to Jojen unless severely provoked. He's loud, aggressive, and blames everything on the but honorable in his own way. That's not how Tyron would see it though - he would expect Jojen to be dead within days.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:00 pm

Reader wrote:Ser Wyll's guilt and the charges laid bore him worse away at him.

"
I had not part in that, my second Ser Humphrey had the command that day. A talented man, but without the control of his troops for true leadership. He may have been able to restrain his men from such a rich target. What matter, Dorne has warred against the King in living memory and in the chaos of war they may not be entirely fair game, but nor are they truly protected non-combatants."

He whistles in frustration.

"
Still, a commander must be held to account for his men."

Charges that could be laid at my door to.

"
As for your darker concerns of corruption or cover-up, given the lowly status of Dornish merchants I cannot think of who would risk so much for such a lowly transgression, be it such at all. Mayhap someone keen for peace with Dorne? I am sorry Septon."

He shrugs apologetically.

[OOC: Ser Wyll is defeated.

He's talking about Ser Humphrey Piper, a household knight at the Warrior's seat [Status 3]]

one more thing to add to the punishments, Ser Humphrey was responsible for the dornish attack, but no word yet on connections to the second attack

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:21 pm

Hmm. Maybe. Ser Humphrey may have been in charge that day, but did he actually do anything wrong?
Corollary question, what punishment would you think fair for us to impose?

I suspect that (assuming he's not the one losing a hand) he will find himself removed from command - his failure to control the troops then cost House Bracken quite a bit.

by **Septon Arlyn** Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:29 pm

Baelon wrote:Hmm. Maybe. Ser Humphrey may have been in charge that day, but did he actually do anything wrong?
Corollary question, what punishment would you think fair for us to impose?

I suspect that (assuming he's not the one losing a hand) he will find himself removed from command - his failure to control the troops then cost House Bracken quite a bit.

from the way I understand it

The attackers knew the lands very well, suggesting this was carried out by an experienced commander from the area, rather than mercenaries or other newcomers. Based on your military knowledge, you think the attack bears the hallmarks of Bracken heavy cavalry.

leading me to think that he did lead the charge

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Thu Dec 31, 2015 9:59 pm

"
Ser Humphrey"
just makes me think of Sir Humphrey Appleby from 'Yes, Minister'. Laughing

All of that looks great, Baelon! My one tiny thing, and it's purely an IC thing, is thst Corrine will push for Vance and his 3 living accomplices to be executed.

by **Baelon Drakeson** Thu Dec 31, 2015 11:16 pm

Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:All of that looks great, Baelon! My one tiny thing, and it's purely an IC thing, is thst Corrine will push for Vance and his 3 living accomplices to be executed.

That would be my preference too, but if we want to separate Ser Tyron from Benji without looking like we are targeting him specifically (which would lower our chances of success) sacrifices must be made. Ser Steffon taking the black is, I think, an acceptable trade-off.

by **Nathaniel Mason** Fri Jan 01, 2016 12:33 am

Half of the ransom from Ser Olyvar Lucas and any other monies realized should be going to House Daleford.

by **Theomore Tullison** Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:51 am

Was there any harm to the Daleford's aside for any pride?

Also, a little list of commentaries:
-Tyron being a landed knight of Raventree (landed quality implies non-hereditary, else it would not carry the sponsor prereq), levying fines upon his incomes is to levy a fine upon Lord Benji, which is to punish House Blackwood for crimes committed by men acting against (or without) orders. Which would be acceptable if House Bracken are similarly punished, as it stands, it looks like favoritism. I would suggest rewording it to make him personally responsible for reparations, and Lord Haig may hold his son as ward until ransomed back.
-All these knights have the right to demand trial by combat in an attempt to exonerate themselves, I expect that some of them will want to exercise it.
-Maester's generally can have status 4, so it follows that Arran could be sent to the wall rather than Ser Tyron, I say go more vicious and drop the recommendation at the end of it, along with replacing member of high position with member of the house no more than one link removed from the lord, which seals Tyron's fate and
-Did we ever establish that nobody else beyond Steffon Vance and Rupert Bracken knew about the assassination? It would be a hard sell to have missed the big replica of Lord Blackwood's chambers in the courtyard. At best neglect given that the accusation was not likely unknown IMO.
-Also, fortifications of mines, that kinda fails to recognize that the Brackens attacked and that caused the damage to them. A brief stop in production due to general warfare is to be expected, the king's letter asked us to ascertain the culprit behind damage being done. If we expect Blackwoods (Tyron) to pay for the damages done in salted fields, I would expect the Brackens to pay for the reparations.
-The suggested punishment of Ser Olyvar I can't get behind. I vote for setting a ransom that should cover the reconstruction of the septry, failure to pay means he can choose between the wall or Lord Haig's justice. Or just hand him over to Lord Haig's justice.
-Same with Steffon Vance, if Maester Arran is denied the option to take the black, then neither should he have that chance.
-Am I to understand that the standing suggestion is that no compensation will befall house Darry?

That ought to be enough to digest for now.

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Fri Jan 01, 2016 1:55 am

Baelon wrote:
Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:All of that looks great, Baelon! My one tiny thing, and it's purely an IC thing, is thst Corrine will push for Vance and his 3 living accomplices to be executed.
That would be my preference too, but if we want to separate Ser Tyron from Benji without looking like we are targeting him specifically (which would lower our chances of success) sacrifices must be made. Ser Steffon taking the black is, I think, an acceptable trade-off.

That's fine. Use that to convince her to relent. Smile

by **Nathaniel Mason** Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:03 am

Theomore Tullison wrote:Was there any harm to the Daleford's aside for any pride?

Aside from damage to their reputation? Reputation means a lot in this world.

Doesn't matter anyway. House Bartheld and Marsten has publicly acknowledged the wrong done to them and promised them compensation.

I should also point out that you, actually, don't get a vote. Neither do I. Only the Lord's of each House actually get a vote. The rest of us are just 'advisers'.

by **Theomore Tullison** Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:19 am

It does look like Theomore will be speaking for his nephew at the negotiations.

by **Nathaniel Mason** Fri Jan 01, 2016 2:36 am

Theomore Tullison wrote:It does look like Theomore will be speaking for his nephew at the negotiations.

I am not sure why.

Dunstan is here. Reader could easily run him in the player's absence.

and Theomore was absent for a large portion of the investigations.

<
shrug>
Not that it much matters. If Bartheld and Marsten get voted down for compensation to House Daleford, I'll just get the money to them another way.

by **Theomore Tullison** Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:23 am

Well, Theo/me is strictly following the wishes of nephew dearest (as confirmed by the player when he was still around), so his vote will more or less be what Dunstan would vote. Though there may be differences in the details. (And he'd probably take issue with Theo's means, but he would also refuse to believe that uncle did anything of the sort he's accused of). Though it reminds me that Dunstan probably wants Bracken heads to roll over the mines....

I do miss the Tullison large ham delicatesse though, so him dropping by would be fun.

by **Lady Corrine Marsten** Fri Jan 01, 2016 3:27 am

Nathaniel Mason wrote:
Theomore Tullison wrote:It does look like Theomore will be speaking for his nephew at the negotiations.

I am not sure why.

Dunstan is here. Reader could easily run him in the player's absence.

and Theomore was absent for a large portion of the investigations.

<
shrug>
Not that it much matters. If Bartheld and Marsten get voted down for compensation to House Daleford, I'll just get the money to them another way.

I'd gladly help with that if it did get voted down.

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Crime and punishment (discussing how to mete out punishment.