Theomore post chapter 2

So we're nearing the end of this chapter and I need to figure out what to do for chapter 3.

In short summary of the present: Riverrun trial is the one alternative I managed to land on that makes IC sense for Theo and that is certain to avoid a player against player struggle of the nasty sort. Him dragging Baelon into it is mostly a little sideshow that makes IC sense, I honestly expected Ironrod to not go along with because the odds of Lord Gormon not being able to get any dirt to stick are fairly high. Also, Theomore is a student of David Xanatos (or the Westerosi equivalent), if Ironrod said no, he'd have some fun, since Ironrod said yes, he will have some other fun, what sort of fun depends on what Corrrie decides. I expect that team Drakebrook will find a way to come out on top if Baelon has to stand in front of Lord Tully anyhow, but that's Baelon's story, not mine, and if I have a right to ask for Theomore going to Riverrun, then Baelon's player should have a right to ask for Baelon not going to Riverrun.

At any rate, chapter 2 is drawing to an end, and we'll have downtime and eventually chapter 3, which is where the dilemma presents itself. On one hand, I like Theomore, I like the complexity of his character, even though I suppose most of that complexity is only known to me and I do enjoy coming up with his schemes and plots. On the other, he is a despicable wicked man with reprehensible morals and questionable motives, and the number of PC's having realized that is beginning to become a not so insignificant list. My preference is to keep him as a PC, but roleplay is a team effort, for him to stay on as a PC, we need to be able find a way where this works in our collective storytelling. This does not mean that other PC's doesn't hate him, or that other PC's wouldn't want anything to do with him. But it does mean that it should be possible for him to interact with those PC's in a way that we as players finds fun. Such scenes need not be rosy, chilly scenes full of tension could be fun too. And the purpose of this thread from my end is to figure out what other people think is possible.

My preliminary vision is that Theomore will plot and scheme, but that I will work with reader to figure out which of these should touch other PC's and in what manner they will do so. Essentially creating an OOC buffer of sorts to prevent PvP, some schemes will be designed from an OOC perspective in such a way that it will be possible for other PC's to detect and dismantle. Essentially limiting potential conflict, while making it possible for other PC's to act against him should they have the desire. Other schemes will be designed so that this won't happen, and will purely be Theo vs NPC's. He'll be moving away from Mountain's Reach, not forgetting his family, but it leaves me with the freedom not to have house objectives to pursue (or at least not have any house objectives that matters for the house of any other PC), which means that there won't be any challenge of distrust from other PC's to overcome in such pursuit.

An alternative that has been floated around is that I become a sub-narrator, and Theo enters an ensemble of NPC's, and his involvement in the story will be the plots and schemes that touches other PC's and that's his involvement. The thing that speaks against this alternative is the fact that I don't know if I can make the commitment. Or at least I have this sticking feeling that I shouldn't make the commitment. The third option is a new PC, which I am not all that keen on, but could work.

I personally would like to see Theomore move to a stand alone PC or a "
sub-narrator"
/ "
primary antagonist"
sort. I feel that as long as that role is clearly defined it will work out quite well.


I understand if you would feel a bit balking at the amount of work a sub-narrator would be. As the "
Narrator"
Of my OOC group I can testify that it is a lot of work. However... if you could generate additional content I would love that.

Or you could create a new character. Whatever works




That said, if the Septon can figure out what your up to, prepare yourself for some righteous condemnation IC


Either way I will try and support you whichever you choose

Theo's an interesting character, and I'd really like to see more of him.

That said, he's definitely transforming into something of an adversary character, at least to several of the PCs. That doesn't mean you can't play him, of course! There's quite a few PC rivalries, and hostilities going on. Theo just has the honor of having attracted the ire of more than one at a time. And I suppose to some extent his schemes on us sort of depended on us trusting him enough to listen. Without that, your schemes might involve us, but it will be harder to directly include us...which might make it less fun for you?

I dunno! It's a tough call! I guess all I can say is what would make you happiest as a player? What brings you to the board to post? The plots and schemes? The scenes with other players? Is there something you clearly enjoy more than the other?

It seems like each of the options has significant potential flaws. I suppose it comes down to which of those potential flaws is most worth the risk.

The issue I see with the first option (continuing Theo) is that Theo would be a bit of a pariah among (some?) other players, making PC to PC interactions difficult. If you spend most of your time with NCs, that could be a bit of a drain on Reader, as he would essentially be running two stories.

The issue I see with the second option (sub-narrating) is that if it ends up being too much for you to be able to do, that could ruin your fun and possibly the fun of those your NCs are interacting with.

The issue I see with the third option (new character) is that, from I have seen from these two games, you enjoy playing scheming troublemakers. If you introduce a new one of the same sort as Ayleth/Theo/Marq, we could end up in the exact same situation again.

It seems to me that the best option might be a combination of 1 and 3: A new character whose schemes are largely restricted to NCs. A new character has a clean slate with other PCs, and restricting the scheming to NCs helps keep it that way. Of course, as Gwyn pointed out, whatever option you choose has to make you happy as a player.

I agree with Gwyn and Baelon. I don't like the sub-narrator idea, and I think Theo has too many bridges burning right now to be able to have much PC interaction going forward.

Have you thought about some sort of "
redemption arch"
for Theomore?
I am mainly thinking aloud here, but if you were to create a story, where Theomore comes close to death *hint* (or death to his family if that hurts him more) by one of his own schemes and were saved by somebody he did not expect to help him, which causes him to overthink his own acts, that could mark some sort of turnaround for the character.

Obviously that would require quite some investment on your part, but it could be fun and mirror some developments of the books...

Kevan Lyras wrote:Have you thought about some sort of "
redemption arch"
for Theomore?
I am mainly thinking aloud here, but if you were to create a story, where Theomore comes close to death *hint* (or death to his family if that hurts him more) by one of his own schemes and were saved by somebody he did not expect to help him, which causes him to overthink his own acts, that could mark some sort of turnaround for the character.

Obviously that would require quite some investment on your part, but it could be fun and mirror some developments of the books...

Words from my own mouth. Plus it would give you an ally of the Septon. He still feels guilty at not being able to see Athlestan to redemption. He may try doubly hard for you

Kevan Lyras wrote:Have you thought about some sort of "
redemption arch"
for Theomore?
I am mainly thinking aloud here, but if you were to create a story, where Theomore comes close to death *hint* (or death to his family if that hurts him more) by one of his own schemes and were saved by somebody he did not expect to help him, which causes him to overthink his own acts, that could mark some sort of turnaround for the character.

Obviously that would require quite some investment on your part, but it could be fun and mirror some developments of the books...

That could be interesting!

Kicking around a Jamie style redemptive arc might work too.

Fuller contribution when I'm not exhausted.

I want to have Theomore struggle with his conscience, but real redemption will need to come naturally, planning such is not my style.

The one thing I want to do away with is the need to deceive other PC's all the time, that's just too taxing. A Theomore that lies to himself as much as he lies to other PC's could be far more interesting. I also expect that Theomore's plottings will primarily happen through downtime, and in the actual chapters, he'll be pursuing his goals more or less like all the other PC's will.

Theomore Tullison wrote:I want to have Theomore struggle with his conscience, but real redemption will need to come naturally, planning such is not my style.

The one thing I want to do away with is the need to deceive other PC's all the time, that's just too taxing. A Theomore that lies to himself as much as he lies to other PC's could be far more interesting. I also expect that Theomore's plottings will primarily happen through downtime, and in the actual chapters, he'll be pursuing his goals more or less like all the other PC's will.

I think this plus my plans for Raff strike a reasonable balance?

The next story will hopefully be more like story 1 (green v Black competition, but more through striving for the same goal and to outdo the other side for prizes), reducing some PvP tension? Plus we're all getting better at discussing that kind of thing OOC first too.

Allied with at least opportunities for Ser Kevan's redemption angle, letting Ser Theomore come down on one side or the other.

I have two issues with the redemption story.

One is that there many characters (Baelon being one) who have absolutely no trust in anything Theo does or says, and no IC reason to want to forgive him. That means that everything he does is going to be viewed with suspicion and distrust - which I have to imagine is going to be rather frustrating, though perhaps less taxing than having to lie all the time.

The other is that I have a hard time imagining that certain high-powered NCs are going to be willing to, depending on their relationship, either release their hooks from him or forgive him. A good story about why he's not rotting in a dungeon or worse will have to be had - otherwise the IC thing for some characters (again, Baelon being one) to do would be to seek to undermine and punish him further, which is something that I (the player) for one would rather avoid - it has too many of the hallmarks of the situation I had with Athelstan leading up to the mines.

These are not necessarily insurmountable problems, but they should be considered in planning what comes.

basically, if you want to continue with Ser theomore, you will need to have something happen that can show he can be redeemed and that pcs can trust him at all and maybe shake him from his cynicism.

I have no issue with him plotting as that is who he is, but we found have to find a way to free him from the clutches of certain high level NCs which could be part of the arc

Well, I must admit that I'm not on top with all of the schemes, but my impression is that it would be well doable to redeem Theomore. Not everyone knows of his past, and even those who do may change opinions on him. Very few knows the full extent of what he's done (if anyone). He is protected by Daemon, one of the most powerful men in the kingdom. In short redemption is very possible, if a little draining.

well, Song of Ice and Fire- shit happens I think You should keep Theo going further- he can get redemption, what would be great and even if will born in pain- should be satisfying at the very end :;
): or Theo can keep it going in similar way he did/does, and his fall may be also satisfying part :;
): RP is not all about winning though! Theo's existence has potential to become memorable :;
):

issue that he's worried about is very restricted rp opportunities if a lot of characters will be unwilling to do anything with him

So I guess it would be an OOC thing. Could players handle a "
kingslayer"
sort of character? Even if their own PC's would treat him disrespectfully? And could Theomore's PC handle being generally reviled by other PC's?

I guess the question is can we sperate the man, or women, (or dog) behind Theomore PC OOC as well as having fun IC and getting to call him names IC?

(I'm thinking dragon bait :;
): )

Baelon wrote:I have two issues with the redemption story.

One is that there many characters (Baelon being one) who have absolutely no trust in anything Theo does or says, and no IC reason to want to forgive him. That means that everything he does is going to be viewed with suspicion and distrust - which I have to imagine is going to be rather frustrating, though perhaps less taxing than having to lie all the time.

That depends, it is mostly the opportunity to have interactions, we could have scenes like [url=this][/url], or any sort of scene where trusting him or not holds little relevance or impact. Heck, wouldn't it be grand to have a scene where Theomore delivers genuine warning or advice, and the other PC doesn't trust him and ignores it? Theo isn't above staking a gambit that a PC will act contrary to what he urges them to do. And there's plenty of things that some PC's could confront him over to make for interesting scenes.

The other is that I have a hard time imagining that certain high-powered NCs are going to be willing to, depending on their relationship, either release their hooks from him or forgive him. A good story about why he's not rotting in a dungeon or worse will have to be had - otherwise the IC thing for some characters (again, Baelon being one) to do would be to seek to undermine and punish him further, which is something that I (the player) for one would rather avoid - it has too many of the hallmarks of the situation I had with Athelstan leading up to the mines.

I don't know if the truths behind Theo's relationship with various high-powered NC's and why he's not rotting in a dungeon or worse will be told. But they are there. The nature of some of them will make both Theo and the NC's involved not wishing to do anything about them. I just pitched an idea to a storyline that might ease some minds over Pennytree and further the objectives of Theo and [Redacted], but that may very well serve to reinforce the suspicions of certain PC's about which side he's on in the big picture.

Which leaves the issue of some characters seeking to undermine and punish him further. Which I think may be easier solved than the part about interactions, this may be handled in a number of ways, I think (possibly a combination):
1. Due to his actions in chapter 1 and the downtime, Theomore will have resources that he plans to use to defend himself against such actions, effectively making it such that such PC's can act against him, they can win a victory here and there, but nothing that pushes Theomore to retaliate.
2. PC's realizes that getting embroiled in a fight with a man who can recite the entire book of dirty tricks and could add another chapter if he had a desire to may not be the best of ideas.
3. Have NPC's outright urge/command other PC's not to pursue conflict because of #2. There is also a potential outcome of the Riverrun epilogue that may well make people balk at the consequences of pushing Theo on the defensive.
4. Such PC's as are inclined to go after Theo suddenly finds themselves with higher priorities. Possibly as a result of them going after Theo, and he finds it more expedient to throw distractions at them.

But, see, at that point, he's basically a villain.

Making others back of doesn't make him a villain. If anything it makes us who forces his hand look like the villain. There's plenty of stories of the old man applying his dirty skills one last time.

I don't think Theomore has earned true villain status. Sure he has done some pretty awful things.

1. The Benjen frey incident

2. The attacks on Penny tree

3. The feeding the small folk to the dragon

But even with his evil acts he accomplished some good

1. He removed a rapist and avoided a possible abusive relationship between Benjen and Sofia, also allowing Ser Kevan Lyras to marry Sofia instead.

2. This one is harder to see close up, but in expanding the view it could be argued that by confusing the issue about who the bandits focus was, he may have been attempting to divert a civil war with dorne

3. As awful as it sounds he may very well have saved battle valley from the wrath of the dragon by focusing the princes ire on a few individuals. Sacrifice some so the greater p population would be spared, as well as putting down the revolt (or at least putting it off)


I'm not saying that these are not terrible acts. I'm not saying that IC the Septon agrees with them. It even I OOC agree with them. But it can be stated that in a Machiavellian stort of way Theomore has done some good.


It's kinda the ethical debate of do the ends justify the means. And where is that tipping point?

Yoren longshore wrote:Making others back of doesn't make him a villain. If anything it makes us who forces his hand look like the villain. There's plenty of stories of the old man applying his dirty skills one last time.

We must have read different posts. That's nothing to do with what I was saying or what I perceived.

Septon, you've made the situation with Sofia sound way more atruistic than it was. You do realise he was shagging her, right? There's a good chance Robin isn't Kevan's son. Theo didn't save her out of the goodness of his heart.

What I'm saying is, if we're forced as players to fear him and forced to play a certain way just to keep him in play, that's stifling players who don't want to do that. If Theo becomes this shadowy figure we're not allowed to challenge, then that's basically an NC villain role, and not one I, as a player, would want to have among the PCs. I certainly wouldn't interact with that version of him IC, and Corrine definitely isn't going to just drop everything she knows and suddenly act nice.

Septon Arlyn wrote:I don't think Theomore has earned true villain status. Sure he has done some pretty awful things.

1. The Benjen frey incident

2. The attacks on Penny tree

3. The feeding the small folk to the dragon

didn't Prince Aemond back this one? then we can put it out from 'awful things'- if Targaryens back something, it can't be wrong!

Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:

Yoren longshore wrote:Making others back of doesn't make him a villain. If anything it makes us who forces his hand look like the villain. There's plenty of stories of the old man applying his dirty skills one last time.

We must have read different posts. That's nothing to do with what I was saying or what I perceived.

Sorry, you can probably write that down to my sadly lacking reading comprehension then