Theomore post chapter 2

I'm not saying that he is a good guy. Definitely not saying he is altruistic. If my post came off that way that was not my intent. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot of negative views of all of Theomore's actions.

Makaveli was not a very nice guy. One of his. In fact some of his actions I would almost say would grant the benefits of sinister as well as reviled if they became public.

That's not to say that Theomore's plot armor is not without chinks. But if you want to oppose him the best way to do that is not through direct confrontation.

If you really wanted to get at Theomore you should target the relationships that he cares about and work on them. Just like the lady of thorns did not directly oppose the Lannister's.

Just because Ser Theomore may have been correct to sacrifice those small folk, doesn't mean that the Septon will be OK with it

Ser Walton Dulver wrote:

Septon Arlyn wrote:I don't think Theomore has earned true villain status. Sure he has done some pretty awful things.

1. The Benjen frey incident

2. The attacks on Penny tree

3. The feeding the small folk to the dragon

didn't Prince Aemond back this one? then we can put it out from 'awful things'- if Targaryens back something, it can't be wrong!

"
Fire I chose you!"
Yeah pretty sure if a targareon backs it, it will probably end terribly

Septon Arlyn wrote:I'm not saying that he is a good guy. Definitely not saying he is altruistic. If my post came off that way that was not my intent. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot of negative views of all of Theomore's actions.

Makaveli was not a very nice guy. One of his. In fact some of his actions I would almost say would grant the benefits of sinister as well as reviled if they became public.

That's not to say that Theomore's plot armor is not without chinks. But if you want to oppose him the best way to do that is not through direct confrontation.

If you really wanted to get at Theomore you should target the relationships that he cares about and work on them. Just like the lady of thorns did not directly oppose the Lannister's.

Just because Ser Theomore may have been correct to sacrifice those small folk, doesn't mean that the Septon will be OK with it

But what you are proposing is to control other players' behaviour. If Corrine wants to go directly after Theo (and she might), then I don't think it's right to say she can't do that for OOC reasons. We should be free to play our characters. I'm very against giving one PC plot armour over the others.

Septon Arlyn wrote:

Ser Walton Dulver wrote:

Septon Arlyn wrote:I don't think Theomore has earned true villain status. Sure he has done some pretty awful things.

1. The Benjen frey incident

2. The attacks on Penny tree

3. The feeding the small folk to the dragon

didn't Prince Aemond back this one? then we can put it out from 'awful things'- if Targaryens back something, it can't be wrong!

"
Fire I chose you!"
Yeah pretty sure if a targareon backs it, it will probably end terribly

I don't say You are not right but at this moment saying that Theomore feeding Dragon is wrong, You say that Prince Aemond was also wrong it differs of course from person to person what we think about that, but it must stay behind the main scene, at least for now

Well... The game of thrones is inherently unbalanced. Just like a status 2 shieldmadien would unlikely win a fight in the game of thrones by going directly against say a status 5 young Lord of a house. She she might be able to beat him in direct contest of arms, but unless she has some pretty solid proof that he was acting against the king in some way, she will most likely not win her day in court.

That is why the game of shadows is so important.

Also why I'm jealous of your Sam and Davian has Nathan and Daveth has Daveth and Baelon has Lady Gwyn. House Dulver has me but you have all seen my attempts at subterfuge

Ser Walton Dulver wrote:
I don't say You are not right but at this moment saying that Theomore feeding Dragon is wrong, You say that Prince Aemond was also wrong it differs of course from person to person what we think about that, but it must stay behind the main scene, at least for now

Oh the Septon shall be having words. But the squawking of a little grouse is not likely to capture the attention of anyone important. Yet...

Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:

Septon Arlyn wrote:I'm not saying that he is a good guy. Definitely not saying he is altruistic. If my post came off that way that was not my intent. What I am trying to say is that there is a lot of negative views of all of Theomore's actions.

Makaveli was not a very nice guy. One of his. In fact some of his actions I would almost say would grant the benefits of sinister as well as reviled if they became public.

That's not to say that Theomore's plot armor is not without chinks. But if you want to oppose him the best way to do that is not through direct confrontation.

If you really wanted to get at Theomore you should target the relationships that he cares about and work on them. Just like the lady of thorns did not directly oppose the Lannister's.

Just because Ser Theomore may have been correct to sacrifice those small folk, doesn't mean that the Septon will be OK with it

But what you are proposing is to control other players' behaviour. If Corrine wants to go directly after Theo (and she might), then I don't think it's right to say she can't do that for OOC reasons. We should be free to play our characters. I'm very against giving one PC plot armour over the others.

I'm not sure if it's plot armor that is being proposed, just a natural causation of his actions. Anyone can take him on, but he does have powerful connections. He has a story armor, as several powerful people are backing him. His redemption should not restrict other peoples options, merely him tapping into his conections with Daemon to be able to survive more than a regular PC.

A game that makes some PCs safer than others is not a good game, regardless of setting. Your example of fighters against schemers is not an example of an unbalanced situation. We all have our particular strengths, that's irrelevant. I'm talking about disproportionate plot armour, which is a meta-gaming issue, not a character generation issue. If some PCs were getting preferential treatment by way of plot armour that was forcing others out of being able to play their characters their way, I'd leave. I was in a game where the narrator played favourites before, and it was fucking horrible. I'm not doing that shit again.

Yoren, my point is that if he gets to have story armour, then we all should get the same level of story armour as him. We're equal players in this game, and it's meant to be fun first. For me, making one PC basically invincible while the rest of us have to worry constantly is not on.

Yes, that's a good point. It's a hard situation to deal with, but I'd say that that makes it interesting.

Yoren longshore wrote:Yes, that's a good point. It's a hard situation to deal with, but I'd say that that makes it interesting.

Well, for me, it's not. It's not fun when another player gets to dictate how everyone else plays. I would sincerely hope that Reader wouldn't stand for it either.

I think the question is how to achieve (at least) one of two general states:
1. PC's are not sufficiently motivated IC to go after other PC in ways that will force issues on a significant scale.
2. There are forces in play that will prevent rivalries between PC's to swell to a significant scale, possibly by the introduction of "
we'll take it from here"
NC's.

Generally speaking, I would find it troublesome to play in a game world where one PC can seriously screw things over for another. That's where the narrator comes in to keep things in order, possibly by shooting down a scheme before it begins.

And then to the practical applications of it regarding Theo.

I don't mind rivalry, but we'll need to control it somehow, and Theo will effectively be on the other side of the political spectrum than most of the PC's not liking him once we're going into downtime, and black-green skepticism and mistrust comes with the territory. Which may incidentally serve as a buffer. Theo as a bannerman to the Freys, but in many black circles considered to be a green agent, another bannerman of the Freys marries a green girl. Should the blacks push against Theo and risk that the greens gets more hooks to sink into the twins?

There's possible confrontations to be made as well, what was up with Vhagar and Aemond? What might have made Theo arrange Pennytree? What might Lady Tully have on him? Maybe one can't trust his answers, maybe there's value in knowing them nonetheless. There's complexities and nuances regarding Theomore's shift in character that offers a lot of wealth to explore, if there are other characters around to help do that.

Also, in my mind, every single crime Theo ever did has built-in deniability, he can spin a tale based on the truth of his actions and words and the only thing he needs lie about would be his intent and motivation. That doesn't keep people from putting two and two together, but it makes it rather difficult to nail him without becoming he who fights monsters, or convincing the general population, and then we need to enter state 2 above IMO.

Re: Dragon.

Yes, accuse Theo of doing wrong there and you accuse the prince of doing worse. That doesn't stop people for hating Theo for his part in it if they feel so inclined.

Re: Plot Armor.

I would prefer the term armor against other PC's as opposed to armor against NC's who doesn't like what you're doing. And armor against other PC's should apply for all PC's IMO, and is something we ought to regulate a bit among ourselves as well. Whereas armor against NC's who doesn't like what you're doing is something one would need to work for. Theomore has a bigger perceived need for that than do others, so he works harder than others to get it.

It kinda seems though like you're looking for immunity from stuff you brought on yourself. It can look a bit like you don't want to suffer any consequences from your actions. Like, I can't just say "
I don't want Corrine to have the PCs that don't like her to take any action against her, so you can't do that anymore"
. I really feel like you have put Theo in this position yourself, and just getting to sidestep the IC consequences when the rest of us have to take the risks and the resource hits is unfair.

While it is unfair, I imagine that from what reader and Theo have hinted at, Theomore is going to be losing his side character raff. So he is going to be getting hit, just probably not by one of us PC's


And the Septon has already begun putting together clues. He has figured out the how, (the black cavalry, Lord Haig) the why (to divert attention away from the prince, ) what he is left with its the who, (probably someone close to the prince, either his bastard or Theo.) But what the Septon is looking for is evidence, and as Theo stated that he has kept up the air of plausible deniability. But from now on I have more IC knowledge of who IC Ser Theomore really is.

That will also, if I can find the dirt on him, give the Septon leverage in further interactions.

And yes he has powerful connections, and those powerful connections are also what caused him to risk the second Pennytree attack. So like all good plot devices the reader is using his connection against him as much as Ser Theomore is using it for his benefit.

This story is still young. When the walder Frey's and twyin Lannister's performed the red wedding there was not an immediate backlash against their respective houses. However, twyin finally got his comeuppance from his son who had mistreated for years. I'm sure Walder Frey's time will be near. Even if it is his death leading to a civil war of the two towers as all of his children paw for the head of House.

I'm interested to see what reader has in store for Ser Theomore.

Walder Frey is already dead, by one of his sons. That's beside the point though. I'm not really in favour of having deliberate unfairness on a meta level with the vague hope of a rebalance later, because later might never happen. I care about rnjoying the game now, not hoping to enjoy the game in some unspecified, unguaranteed future.

Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:Walder Frey is already dead, by one of his sons. That's beside the point though. I'm not really in favour of having deliberate unfairness on a meta level with the vague hope of a rebalance later, because later might never happen. I care about rnjoying the game now, not hoping to enjoy the game in some unspecified, unguaranteed future.

wait what? when did that happen?

It is a delicate balance between keeping Theomore in the game as a PC with interesting interactions with other PC and any perceived or real plot armor.
Theomore is a very interesting character in the game that I think we should try to keep around somehow. And Reader has shown so far that he runs the game in a fair way without favoring anybody, so we should trust him that he will handle this fair for all involved as well.

Theo is taking resource hits (though spending out of his glory to pay for them) over his schemes, just so we're clear on that. And other characters pressing charges against him over Pennytree has forced him to alter his plans rather dramatically (and not without personal IC cost for that matter), so I don't exactly see him sidestepping the consequences. But the manner in which it happened was unpleasant, so I'd prefer to find a way to avoid doing that again. Spending a considerable amount of resources on the ability to keep himself better protected from anyone having an axe to grind, and not give people more reason than the color of his political cloak to oppose him could be seen as a way to achieve that through reasonable IC precautions, no?

By all means, Corrine is free to be antagonistic towards Theo IC, I don't really mind that, nor do I mind the idea of using Alun as bait for Theo that has been tossed around IC for example, reader and I have actually discussed what sort of response we think is appropriate for him to take there, could be fun to see. If other PC's wants to take Theo's head, that sounds promising from a certain point of view, on the other hand, if they starts to act upon it, then the proper IC response from Theo is to take the initiative and end that fight on his terms. And I for one don't want to go there. Eoric Tully thinks less highly of Theo than before due to PC actions, that is also fine. Unfriendly interaction is still interaction. It's the level of engagement that concerns me the most. And Theomore seeking redemption only to learn that it isn't for everyone could be fun, too.

I already feel like every IC post from Theo should be followed up by an Awareness(Empathy) test by everyone in earshot, and I don't see that changing.

That is not my idea of a fun game.

For my own part, I didn't really have a problem with Theo until he started messing with my peeps. At that point, I became involved, and not in a friendly way.

Gwyn isn't looking to start trouble, but she isn't going to just let it happen either.

I know that Theo had good reasons (from his perspective) to drag Baelon into it...and in fact Baelon was stirring up trouble for him too, though I'm unclear on the timing involved (ie - did Theo go after Baelon before Baelon did the Pennytree accusation or after? And so on)...but so long as Theo appears to present a threat to Gwyn's House and family, she's going to try to remove the threat. That doesn't mean killing him of course...that's not her way.

She's not -really- concerned with what side Theo comes down on in the Green/Black dichotomy at this point, except insofar as which side he comes down on could make him a threat.

Convincing her that he's not a threat anymore could potentially be done, but it wouldn't be as easy as just waving one's hands and saying, "
Okay okay! I won't do it anymore!"


OOC I'm not really looking for an adversary, or even to BE an adversary, but I know my character's priorities and this is how she is. I'm good with talking OOC to try to work out a scenario where things return to a more even keel, and then RPing it in a thread.

I'm also aware that being on Gwyn's bad side probably doesn't carry with it the shivery bad feeling that being on, say, Walton's bad side does...I don't claim that she's super capable of wreaking havok on anyone. I'm not saying this as a way of trying to tacitly threaten anyone. I'm speaking strictly from the point of view of roleplaying opportunities.

Kevan, Baelon, and Gwyn have all made points alI agree with.

I really didn't/don't want to be antagonistic to Theo. Corrine doesn't want any trouble, but she and Ben have both perceived veiled threats from Theo, and while I'd love to resolve matters in a way that is fun, if not necessarily happy, I'm finding it hard to see how. Corrine will generally be more trusting if someone claims to change their ways, but I don't think it would be fair to expect Theo to do that (unless he wanted to, in which case I'd do what I could to support him).

I think I am finding difficulty in a particular way, which could be addressable. I see Theo's player say often that Theo has complex backstory and motivations, and that he is having IC hurdles and hits. But I don't feel like we get to see those things much at all. I'd like to know more about him, and perhaps Corrine would feel differently bout Theo if she knew more about him, but he's so closed that she'd never find out, and his antagonism has given her no reason to want to understand more. It surprises me that it got this bad, because he could easily have charmed her enough to keep her credulous on several occasions, but didn't.

I want to really stress that I want everyone to be happy and have fun, so sorry if I seem to be complaining all the time. I just really want to keep things working, and I get anxious when debates start flying.

Someone may need to jog my memory, but I do not really recall Theomore messing with Drakesons before day 6, and that was because he believed this was what Yoren wanted. He did some minor anti-Daveth stuff earlier. By D6 though, he knew enough to be reasonably certain that the Coldbrooks(Drakesons lumped into that group) was behind the charges.

But people asking Theomore flat out what is going on might actually be an idea. It's also possible that we're seeing a stressed out Theomore on edge during day 6. Which kinda makes sense...he just caused the horrible death of 17 people, he has a long laundry list of Tullison objectives to accomplish, and he is somewhat obsessed with securing a trial he knows he'll walk away from, since he has no idea what Daveth might be cooking up in a revenge bid. Odds are that he's over-reacting.

The part about being so closed, this player is the sort of person that doesn't really understand feelings all that well, so I think there needs to be more elaboration on that.

Well, as soon as Corrine hears that Theo stood by and let Aemond feed a bunch of innocent people to his dragon, she will be demanding to know what is going on quite directly. But, since he has a reputation for being evasive, why should anyone expect a straight answer?

I'm not good at reading others either, but basically, you can't expect people to know your character's backstory, motivations, intentions, or feelings, and respond to that IC, if you don't show/tell them IC. If you want PCs to understand Theo, he has to be more open and honest with them. The other PCs and players, sadly, are not mind-readers.

I imagine she'd learn about that sometime during day 6, and I guess we can give it a go and see how much his armor of coldness might crack on D7.