Theomore post chapter 2

I get the impression that Viserys either is in denial about the possibility of the impending civil war or that he's simply resigned to it's inevitability.

Baelon wrote:
That you think this will not put you significantly closer to Caraxes' maw baffles me.

If you want a less flippant response, reader and I have discussed the future relationship between Theo and Daemon at length, so he'll survive that encounter, we'll see about unscathed, though.

I also suspect that most of you, both IC and OOC, have missed the mark with your assumptions of what Theo has done, hasn't done and the context of his actions. As far as the IC goes, that's just good entertainment. As far as the OOC goes, I'm hoping the show we have in store will be enjoyable to read.

However, it is also a product of how I play Theo, he does crazy stuff and exciting things happens. Then he either has fun with the consequences or must find some way to deal with them. If it should backfire on him, he does even more crazy stuff and makes more exciting things happen to turn that loss into some sort of profit, and relies upon his ability to do this over and over again until he can start setting new plots in motion.

So what happens is that he does stuff concerning Pennytree that blows up big time in his face, he uses his relationship with lady tully to pull a karma houdini, then he'll need to deal with the blacks about his relationship with lady tully and the stuff he did concerning Pennytree, but there's a downtime plan for that, which hopefully will set us up for a healthier OOC environment for chapter 3, though Coldbrooks are still going to hate him, but I think we can live with that. It's no free lunch though, it'll cost him resources and heavily influence his IC path in ways that he maybe wouldn't want to walk, though I think the story that follows will be better for it.

Theomore Tullison wrote:If you want a less flippant response, reader and I have discussed the future relationship between Theo and Daemon at length, so he'll survive that encounter, we'll see about unscathed, though.

Less flippant appreciated, given that this was intended to be a serious discussion about the future of Theo in the game (Yes, I am aware that I have not always lived up to that standard either - mea culpa).

Theomore Tullison wrote:I also suspect that most of you, both IC and OOC, have missed the mark with your assumptions of what Theo has done, hasn't done and the context of his actions. As far as the IC goes, that's just good entertainment. As far as the OOC goes, I'm hoping the show we have in store will be enjoyable to read.

Of course we have. That's the nature of what happens when you do things behind the scenes. Further, I don't think it's all that contentious to claim that you want Theo's actions, motivations, etc. to be somewhat hidden. It enables you to play the games that you play (more on this below).

Theomore Tullison wrote:However, it is also a product of how I play Theo, he does crazy stuff and exciting things happens. Then he either has fun with the consequences or must find some way to deal with them. If it should backfire on him, he does even more crazy stuff and makes more exciting things happen to turn that loss into some sort of profit, and relies upon his ability to do this over and over again until he can start setting new plots in motion.

Just remember that what is exciting to you may be annoying to others. To you, it is all good fun. To others (I should say that this is true of myself, I can't really speak for others) your shenanigans are best when they are ignorable. When you constrained your scheming to side plots and stuff that mostly only concerned yourself, it was tolerable. When you started mucking with what we were doing and trying to make other players dance to your tune, it got obnoxious. When you try to benefit yourself by screwing with a PC, you step over a line. I am not saying that you have done so, but you have certainly talked as if you are willing or even planning to.

Theomore Tullison wrote:So what happens is that he does stuff concerning Pennytree that blows up big time in his face, he uses his relationship with lady tully to pull a karma houdini, then he'll need to deal with the blacks about his relationship with lady tully and the stuff he did concerning Pennytree, but there's a downtime plan for that, which hopefully will set us up for a healthier OOC environment for chapter 3, though Coldbrooks are still going to hate him, but I think we can live with that. It's no free lunch though, it'll cost him resources and heavily influence his IC path in ways that he maybe wouldn't want to walk, though I think the story that follows will be better for it.

See, we aren't the only ones with misconceptions. You are wrong that the Coldbrooks (that is, the PCs) hate Theo. There are varying degrees of sentiment. Some see Theo as a snake that needs to be shorter by about a foot off the top. Some see Theo as a fun adversary to 'fence' with. Others are just tired of dealing with the crap he causes. The hate? All in your head.

I don't think we're at so much disagreement over things as we sometimes like to pretend :;
):

There is one scheme I want to pull during downtime which has the objective of giving the Coldbrooks/Drakesons something to worry about and probably will introduce a struggle for you guys to overcome, on an OOC level you should eventually come out victorious, whatever you define victory to be. As far as me the player goes, it'll be a fire and forget missile. Theo does some stuff to make various NPC's throw a spanner in the Coldbrook works, and 90% of what he gets out of it has nothing to do with Coldbrooks at all, they just happen to be the perfect target of opportunity for what he wants to achieve. What happens next is up to where reader wants to take it, and what you decide to do about it. I believe it should make for good fun if done right.

If you guys thinks that sounds fine, then it'll happen unless I botch my downtime rolls.

Beyond that, all presently active plans for schemes involves NPC's that at most have been mentioned in passing in some IC post. Longer term...well, he's going to be a bannerman to House Frey, holding a plot of land that neighboring House Lucas still moan about the Freys stealing from them a few generations ago, so if people have plans involving Freys and Lucases, well, things could interesting.

As far as what Theo's playing at goes, the truth is actually that his big play did not develop until that little business at Pennytree went sideways. And as far the IC chronology goes, it hasn't really formed in his mind, yet. But there's a specific path I want it to lead Theomore down, and yet for all the heck I know, he might do something else entirely if something interesting happens between here and there.

This whole Benjen-Floreta-Sofia triangle for example, there was no grand plan. It was more like, let's deflower Sofia because it's fun, maybe Theo could make Lord Blackwood believe that a Bracken did it? However, it turned out that Sofia wanted a shiny white knight to rescue her from the betrothal to a certain vicious brute that hit her where the marks didn't show. So Theomore, guided by his own twisted moral code decided to handle it in his own way. Que putting the furious frey on the path of his doom, with Brenda the serving girl being the sacrificial lamb needed to make this happen, and for bonus points, Theo planned to make the greens nail Benjen to the wall so that he then could flip Lord Frey black, but he only started working on that plan after Benjen raped Brenda. Then Dunstan jumps onto Theo's cyvasse board, sending the pieces flying in all directions, and Theo needs to rework everything. And Theo flirting with Floreta during this time was utterly unrelated. It was only later that he realized that, oh, hey, if he can get Benjen out of the way and marry this girl who'd lift her skirts for him in a heartbeat if they were alone, he gets his tower, too.

That is admittedly a rather extreme example, but aside from one-off shenanigans, most, if not all, of Theo's schemes originated from what was intended as a one-off shenanigan, and then one thing happened after the other that makes him start playing Xanatos speed cyvasse with it, and suddenly different plotlines ends up on the same board. Though I think it's very very IC for others to look at all that and reach the conclusion that Theo is a hidden agenda villain. As fun as it is to do it like that, the problem is that I don't necessarily have control over where it might end up as it relates to other PC's, so while Theo's MO very well might remain speed cyvasse IC, it needs more OOC oversight.

OTOH, he has a much more clearly defined agenda post-chapter 2 than he did going into it. Which in a funny twist of OOC fate became the IC reason for why he went along with an ill-conceived plan to reach his objective, that just so happened to be the thing that (probably) made him fail in achieving it, and ironically the consequences of it all being the what prompted his agenda to form. Westeros would probably be better off if Theo's sellsword ploy had succeeded :mrgreen:

Theomore Tullison wrote:I don't think we're at so much disagreement over things as we sometimes like to pretend :;
):

It's not the disagreements (pretend or otherwise) that worry me - it's the misunderstandings and assumptions about what will be fun and exciting.

Theomore Tullison wrote:There is one scheme I want to pull during downtime which has the objective of giving the Coldbrooks/Drakesons something to worry about and probably will introduce a struggle for you guys to overcome, on an OOC level you should eventually come out victorious, whatever you define victory to be. As far as me the player goes, it'll be a fire and forget missile. Theo does some stuff to make various NPC's throw a spanner in the Coldbrook works, and 90% of what he gets out of it has nothing to do with Coldbrooks at all, they just happen to be the perfect target of opportunity for what he wants to achieve. What happens next is up to where reader wants to take it, and what you decide to do about it. I believe it should make for good fun if done right.

If you guys thinks that sounds fine, then it'll happen unless I botch my downtime rolls.

I shall refrain from comment at this time while Houses Coldbrook and Drakeson discuss internally.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Beyond that, all presently active plans for schemes involves NPC's that at most have been mentioned in passing in some IC post. Longer term...well, he's going to be a bannerman to House Frey, holding a plot of land that neighboring House Lucas still moan about the Freys stealing from them a few generations ago, so if people have plans involving Freys and Lucases, well, things could interesting.

Given the burgeoning friendship between Lords Forrest and Baelon, Theo may want to watch what he says about Baelon (at least publicly). It would not do to piss off one's future banner lord and the future in-laws.... especially before the deal is (officially) sealed.

Theomore Tullison wrote:for bonus points, Theo planned to make the greens nail Benjen to the wall so that he then could flip Lord Frey black

Uh, Lord Forrest is already Black...

Theomore Tullison wrote:Though I think it's very very IC for others to look at all that and reach the conclusion that Theo is a hidden agenda villain. As fun as it is to do it like that, the problem is that I don't necessarily have control over where it might end up as it relates to other PC's, so while Theo's MO very well might remain speed cyvasse IC, it needs more OOC oversight.

I can't speak for others, but Baelon does not look at Theo as a master schemer with some grand plan. Rather, he has private (often selfish) motivations and is more than happy to use repugnant tactics to satisfy those motivations.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Westeros would probably be better off if Theo's sellsword ploy had succeeded :mrgreen:

Baelon, for one, will never believe that. Even if you manage to convince me (the player). :;
):

/sigh

Maybe Theomore should just constrain his interactions to PC houses who enjoy shanigans

I, for one, appreciate the shanigans that Theomore provides. Creating stories can be difficult. The fact that Theomore spends so much time and energy creating stories to be told for the coldbrook/Drakesons says that he cares about you guys. If he didn't he would simply ignore you.

It's at a matter of perspective, sometimes I think people tend to only see things from one point of view and have a hard time empathizing with others.

Especially on forms where a lot of nonverbal communication is lost

Septon Arlyn wrote:Maybe Theomore should just constrain his interactions to PC houses who enjoy shanigans

It's not his interactions per se. Heck, he caused trouble for all of us (at Pennytree) without choosing to interact with any of us. It's more the target of the shenanigans.

Septon Arlyn wrote:I, for one, appreciate the shanigans that Theomore provides. Creating stories can be difficult. The fact that Theomore spends so much time and energy creating stories to be told for the coldbrook/Drakesons says that he cares about you guys. If he didn't he would simply ignore you.

... he just said we were targets of convenience.
Also, it's very different being on the outside than on the inside.

Septon Arlyn wrote:It's at a matter of perspective, sometimes I think people tend to only see things from one point of view and have a hard time empathizing with others.

I fail to understand that comment as anything other than an insult.

It all falls out in-character. If Theo treats the Coldbrooks/Drakesons as targets of convenience, then he has no claim to innocence when they try to make his life difficult.

OOC it might be fun in a sort of way, though it's kind of too bad too. It would have been fun to have a more congenial relationship with such a clever and engaged player.

But so it goes.

It's actually more a matter of House Coldbrook having several interesting characters that are so well developed in terms of relations between them and various NPC's that it actually was very easy to see how Theomore can pull off the stunt, primarily working through already established NPC's, tugging upon threads that already exist in the IC, some of them having been explored in several scenes. In essence, it's a scheme that fits perfectly into Theo's post-chapter 2 agenda, and I honestly doubt I could put together something just as promising, both from Theo's IC perspective and my OOC perspective as the player, without having that wealth of background to draw upon.

I don't think I'd come close to do something similar with any other player house as the main ingredient, so it's really good work. The sort of good work that made me seriously contemplate letting Theo go NPC just so that I could come back with a PC that could hang out with you. Then I figured that I'll have more fun sticking with Theo even if that means IC interactions are little more than icy glares.

I am of course, biased towards having it happen, it should be noted that I think that there's considerable room for negotiation with reader about where to take the subplot once it's out of the bag, it could be anything from some flavorful IC annoyance in the background to be a major plot point for Coldbrook affiliated PC's.

So, there's going to be some changes to the Riverrun and downtime plans, OOC stuff going on and such. And I have an interest in making Theo able to co-exist with the rest of the ensemble.

I also scrapped the spanner in the works for the Coldbrooks, well reader has my notes if he feels like making his NPC's start scheming against us PC's.

Still need to finish up the IC which might take awhile, but Riverrun plan shapes out to basically be Theomore drumming up a really good defense and figures that he can walk out of there cleared of all charges without having to piss off people (more than he already has done, though Lord Gorman will be disappointed), and decides that he likes that deal. It'll be rather obvious that he has picked up quite a few green-aligned friends (including Lady Tully) since last time we were in Riverrun, and that's going to be the end of it.

As ever, negotiating things OOC first is best! I was always very pro having my PC manipulated, but understandable for others not to be keen on it. OOC negotiations establish boundaries, eg "
happy to be manipulated/intrigued, but only to the extent of risking X, not being talked in to robbing the Iron Bank/challenging Ser Criston/betraying my lover"
.