Athelstan - Iron mines

I am all for moving on, but I do feel that Theo's point is valid and should be addressed.

Theomore Tullison wrote:Well, it's a rather shitty OOC move to enforce intrigue upon those who wants to quit it, this entire incident kinda leaves a bit of a taste in my mouth of Baelon the player robbing Athelstan the player of all narrative control.

I will admit that it does limit - though I deny eliminate - Athelstan(P)'s narrative control. Even if bound, Athelstan(C) could have (and did) try to get me to give up my interrogation. Athlstan(C) could have started a negotiation with someone else (e.g. Corrine) to intercede. Athelstan(P) could have offered additional yields with varying degrees of OOC information until one was found that I [Baelon(P)] would have accepted (such as offering information about someone else's crime as well as his own in exchange for leniency, or in exchange for being allowed to fight a trial by combat, etc.). There were options that could have been explored. They were not.

In general, I do not like reducing other people's narrative control. For instance I would not trap a PC, beat some wounds onto them, and force-intrigue them into voting a certain way on the final treaty. However, it is inevitable that player narrative control will be, at times, limited. There will be conflicts;
not everyone can win. The plot led me to a situation where I had to either sacrifice some of Athelstan(P)'s narrative control or some of my [Baelon(P)'s] my own (by not acting in character to information about Athelstan(C)'s actions). I take it as implicit that all players are willing to accept the IC consequences of their character's actions.

We do not play in isolation (thankfully - that would be boring). Our actions impact others. Sometimes, our actions come back to haunt us. That is part of what makes the story compelling.
And yes, that may mean that some day it is Theo or Raff bound and being forced to answer questions (or Baelon(C) for that matter, should he deserve it).

Trial by combat was not an option IC, if I recall correctly and he was never going to confess unless you showed him the evidence that he was guilty IC

Also, you've all got destiny points and the ability to take flaws (the latter within reason).

Well, as far as Baelon using Bloodriders to physically restrain Athelstan, on the assumption that he has IC reasons to do that goes, I don't have a problem.

I take issue with the combination of this AND forcing him into an intrigue that he cannot quit and/or refuse to take part in.

I'd say that if confessing will pretty much seal his fate (from Athelstan's IC point of view), then threatening to kill him if he doesn't isn't a very effective threat. And convincing him that it would be better if he confesses? That's something Theomore the deception-bot might be able to pull off. 5D persuasion would be rather worthless though.

It should be noted that I am reasonably certain that Theomore could whisper in the right ears to give Athelstan a trial by combat if he were taken into custody. And if the reward for that would be longshore friendship, I don't see why he wouldn't do that. Nothing personal against Baelon or the Coldbrooks, it is simply what Theo does.

me: "
Let's move on."


Reader: "
Yeah. Let's move on."


*nobody moves on*

He wasn't asking for a confession, he was asking for testimony...lol...and around we go.

Lady Corrine Marsten wrote:me: "
Let's move on."


Reader: "
Yeah. Let's move on."


*nobody moves on*

To be fair, the discussion had shifted from resolving the situation to a discussion about whether or not the situation was caused by inappropriate player behavior, and I as the player most proximally responsible for the situation, I felt I should answer what I felt was an important and justified question. I am refraining from discussing the situation except in the context of that question.

Which Baelon is right, it's no longer the discussion of Athelstan death, just the IC/OOC choices and how they played out like Baelon says

on a side note, since I haven't quite had a chance to say it, I think Athelstan is a great name for the SIF Universe. like, it rolls off the tongue (from my pronunciation anyhow)

I truly cannot wait for this to die off. It's stressful as fuck.

I want to express I enjoyed Athelstan's character, you as a player did a great job.

And death is a natural thing, especially in this game and setting.

Looking forward to your next character!

Thank you, but I think I missed something or fumbled him a couple of times.

Athelstan wrote:Thank you, but I think I missed something or fumbled him a couple of times.

Eh, we all do that. Don't let that detract from the praise.
Athelstan certainly brought a lot of drama, and his shenanigans led to some really good roleplay.

Postby Septon Arlyn » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:44 am
[You can operate persuade me that that you as a character are not so bad (charm) as in. "
Baelon is a true knight "
but you can't tell me that (convince) your actions were, as you say "
acted righteously for the good of all, and will share that opinion freely (now and in the future)"
]

I accept the charm defeat
Septon Arlyn: A jovial holy man with some unorthodox views of the seven. Namely trying to be a good person to the small folk.
User avatar
Septon Arlyn

Posts: 880
Joined: Fri May 22, 2015 6:09 am
Location: Oregon usa
Top
Re: (D3 - LM) Search for Iron
Postby Baelon » Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:55 am
[I'll let Reader make a ruling on what losing this intrigue means for Septon Arlyn. I've said my piece.]
Lord Baelon Drakeson ~ Known but not publicly acknowledged bastard of Daemon Targaryan ~ Founder of House Drakeson
User avatar
Baelon

Posts: 2159
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 11:47 am
Top
Re: (D3 - LM) Search for Iron
Postby Septon Arlyn » Sun Nov 15, 2015 9:02 am
[Moved to iron mines OOC thread.]
Septon Arlyn: A jovial holy man with some unorthodox views of the seven. Namely trying to be a good person to the small folk.

Well there is a Intrigue system for this.

The same system also has a Charm technique and convince, let's quote the book and find out RAW who is right.

Charm
Use Charm whenever you would cultivate a friendship, improving the
target’s disposition to make him or her more amenable to your position
in future intrigues. When you use this technique, you ply your target
with complements, empathizing with their plights and conditions, and
work to adapt yourself to your subject’s desires.
Consequences of Defeat
Consequences of Defeat: Charm is the simple act of cultivating
friendships and alliances, or to reason with enemies and avoid
conflict. When you defeat an opponent using charm, you improve
the target’s disposition by one step. The target’s improved disposition
lasts until circumstances would worsen their disposition
against you—such as a betrayal on your part or a rival inciting the
opponent against you. In addition, you gain +1D on all Deception
and Persuasion tests during your next intrigue against this
opponent.

Charm is not for convincing people of what you say is true by RAW.

So Baelon just so we are clear. The defeat consequences of intrigue are very clear. When you were offering me the yields you were essentially asking me to lose both a charm and convince and you would do the same. I did not find those terms to my liking so I countered. But you chose not to accept my terms either. We both spent a lot on this intrigue, you more then me and you won. However if you wanted to convince me then that would be 3 damage per dos not 4, and it would have had a different outcome.

Baelon must be clear to influence Septon being friendly or reroll some of his intrigues for convince and convince him. ]

Convince
Sometimes a forceful argument can get your point across where charm
or seduction might fail. Convince imparts your position or idea by
simply putting the idea out there in a reasoned and logical manner.
Convince is a stated desire that stands on its merits alone. It is often
less effective because it isn’t backed up by a threat, and there may not
be something in it for the subject. Thus, it often takes longer to persuade
a subject to your position, especially when they are ill-disposed
against you.

Consequences of Defeat
Consequences of Defeat: Whenever you defeat an opponent
using Convince, you are honestly trying to get the target to assist
you or to agree with your position. Using Convince does nothing
to improve the target’s disposition;
instead, Convince gets them to
support your position or grant you assistance. Even dire enemies can
be persuaded to help, provided they have sufficient cause, though
there’s nothing to say the enemy won’t use the opportunity to betray
you later. A convinced target assists you through the particular trial
but no further.

Or we need re-roll of every convince action taken or take charm victory.

Septon can Quit also

I think in Convince victory he has the options to support your statements or simple grant you assistance in the investigation for the truth.

But that's what not in question I think?

I would prefer not to quit. An intrigue was initiated and if we are playing by RAW I'm ok with being defeated by charm. IC that means that I think Baelon is a good knight but that he made some reckless actions and pushed a already fragile man to the limit and he committed suicide (pending daveths offer)

1) Yields are separate from defeat consequences - anything goes, if accepted.
2) The intrigue isn't over yet. If I need to switch technique (perfectly valid by the rules) I will do so.
If I need to change objectives (also perfectly valid by the rules, with a cost I find acceptable) I will do so.
Note that I am not fond of the 'charm hammer' mentality and have avoided it, but if that's the only way to get anything done, I will do so.
I would note that if what you are saying is true, Convince is the only technique really worth investing in - it can do anything, but the other techniques are stringently limited.

I do not have to take frustration's. Hence me allowing you to defeat me with charm

That is not necessarily true. Charming people can be very powerful. Especially if you charm a powerful NPC. That makes his DR lower and allows you to gain +1 D on the next intrigue, people take read Target actions just for that benifits and allow themselves to be attacked for 1 turn for free.

Charm is powerful. But it can not do everything.

Just like convince is strong, but it will not earn you allies.

There are different techniques for different reasons. It's not one size fits all

It is also worth noting that the friendship objective (friendship being specifically mentioned in the Charm description) states:
"
Friendship, obviously, covers a lot of ground, and with this objective you might seduce a man, arrange a marriage, build an alliance, or simply gain a new friend."

It is a multifaceted option.

Further, I would highlight the following from the Charm consequences:
"
Charm is the simple act of cultivating friendships and alliances, or to reason with enemies and avoid conflict."

That seems to be precisely what I am doing.

Septon Arlyn wrote:I do not have to take frustration's. Hence me allowing you to defeat me with charm

That is a fair point.

I think, not sure, but you only use 1 technique per intrigue, otherwise Read target to find an opponent technique is useless and or taking any specialty other than Charm. I no longer have my books at hand... stupid me forgot butter and other ingredients... runing to the store.

Edit also Septon is not taking yield, dont force it down the player. Hr is saying he accepts DEFEAT, not YIELD

Indeed to reason with enemies, but what you are proposing is to basically have the outcome of convince as you are determining what the septon would think and how he would act when the material results of the technique are an improvement of his relationship with you. I think as you said, it is a emotional technique, so there should not be rational limitations, like a complex explanation of how he would believe in everything Baelons said as the representation of Disposition+1.

I'll just quote Nathan:

Objective: I am a great guy and you should agree with me.

Charm Defeat: Yep.. your a great guy, but I still don't agree with you.

Convince Defeat: Okay, I agree with you, but my opinion of you has not changed.

Defeat in a Charm gives +1 Disposition and +1D to the next Intrigue. Period. It does not motivate, or promote action in any way.

However, disposition matters. Affectionate people are willing to risk their lives to protect you, Malicious people are willing to risk their lives to hurt you. Septon Arlyn that dislikes you is likely to speak of you in negative terms, he is not likely to actively spread that opinion, that's crossing into hostile territory. Indifferent septon Arlyn will not speak of you in any particularly positive or negative terms.

Expanded example of how it could be interpreted:

Dislike Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority because he is arrogant and unwilling to accept that others should have been included.
Indifferent Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority, but he probably did not have any ill intentions, perhaps he needs some further tutoring on account of his youth?
Amiable Arlyn: Baelon overstepped his authority, but his heart is in the right place, but he is young and will learn in time.

Arlyn at dislike, but convinced: Baelon acts can be justified by the circumstances, but he is arrogant and unapologetic about the consequences, unwilling to accept that he could have handled it better.